Talk:Laura Veale

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• ... that Laura Veale was the first Yorkshire-born woman to be qualified as a doctor?

• Source: Several, including: Harrogate Advertiser: "Hampsthwaite commemorates North Yorkshire’s first female doctor Laura Sobey Veale". Note: This fact has had to be carefully interpreted. It was initially expressed as "the first Yorkshire woman to become a doctor" on the brown plaque, pictured in the article and written by the eminent Harrogate historian Malcolm Neesam. He meant "Yorkshire-born". However it has since been interpreted to mean that she was the first female doctor to practise in Yorkshire, which would be incorrect. Edith Pechey was the first qualified woman doctor to practise in Yorkshire, but she was born in Essex, so to local understanding she was definitely not a "Yorkshire woman" (they are very parochially-minded here). Veale was born in Yorkshire.

• Reviewed: Sonja van den Ende
• Comment: Created in userspace over some weeks from 15 March, then moved to mainspace on 6 May.

Moved to mainspace by Storye book (talk).

Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 105 past nominations.

Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.

Storye book (talk) 17:49, 7 May 2024 (UTC).

• The article was moved to mainspace yesterday, so is new enough. It is far more than long enough and properly uses in-line citations (perhaps even more so than necessary for some sentences). The copyvio detector doesn't find anything other than names of things and quotes that are properly used in the article. The hook is short enough, interesting, and is cited inline. The QPQ has been done and there's no image to review. Looks good to go! Silverseren^C 20:41, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

• Thank you for the review, Silver seren Re the "even more so than necessary", you'll find that some experienced editors are doing that for a good reason. For example, if you have a "first" in the article, that is going to be automatically questioned and double-checked, and rightly so. Therefore, it is worth finding as many different, independent sources as possible for that "first" and including them all in the article. There is also the fact that some sources may be accessible to some readers (e.g. readers with a subscription, readers in the UK, etc.) and some source may not be accessible to all (e.g. readers outside the UK or without subscription), so it's worth giving them a few alternative sources. A third reason is that various sources give different aspects to the same fact, and some sources also include extra facts which the editor chooses not to include in the article, but which are extremely interesting. In the cast of historical articles, contemporary sources may give the historical standpoint on the matter. Extra sources containing additional facts may also allow other editors to expand the article. Nothing is wasted in this particular article, and there is a reason for everything. Storye book (talk) 08:06, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@Storye book and Silver seren: The relevant policy is WP:CLUMP, which says that "Two or three [citations] may be preferred for more controversial material or as a way of preventing linkrot for online sources, but more than three should generally be avoided; if four or more are needed, consider bundling (merging) the citations." I'm afraid it would deserve {{clump}}, and I think your explanation on this page would constitute WP:SYNTH anyway.--Launchballer 11:52, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for removing the surplus reference. I notice there are several unattributed quotes, including (but not limited to) "the first Yorkshire[-born] woman to become a doctor" and the "by all reports" sentence after it, that are not attributed in text, and I think they should be.--Launchballer 19:42, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Edit conflict. @Launchballer: (1) There are now no groups of more than three citations in the article. (2) Synth is about article content. It does not govern discussions on DYK templates, article talk pages or user talk pages. It is permissible to give one's opinion on DYK templates (how often have you seen the opinion "I don't like that hook"?) Neither is Synth about the grouping together of two or more references which support the relevant fact, and just so happen to contain extra material which may or may not also be useful where the fact is controversial. I shall look at the unattributed quotations. Storye book (talk) 19:47, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I have now added attributions in words to all the remaining quotations, except where the quotations were just one or two words. It doesn't look right to me, because the quotations are already cited at their ends, but I have done it since you asked, to keep the peace. Storye book (talk) 20:15, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Unpromoted per Special:Diff/1227320336 RoySmith (talk) 01:21, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

ALT1 ... that despite the contemporary misogyny of the medical profession in her home county of Yorkshire, Laura Veale was accepted for medical training at the Royal Free Hospital Medical School? (186 characters) (Source: The BMJ: "She decided) to enter the medical profession at a time when this was a particularly difficult step for women to take. In fact the medical school in Leeds shut its doors to her, and she had to go to the more liberal-minded University of London to pursue her studies, passing the London M.B. in 1904".) Note: the Royal Free Hospital Medical School was then run under the auspices of the University of London. Storye book (talk) 10:30, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

ALT2 ... that despite the misogyny of the medical profession in her home county, Laura Veale was accepted for medical training at the Royal Free Hospital Medical School?

Note: to promoter: Please use the picture or not as you wish, but I am sure that you will not discard the picture on the sole grounds of not being a pretty girl, because she had quite enough misogyny in her lifetime. Thank you.. Storye book (talk) 10:38, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Oops. Forgot that the image is not yet free. Storye book (talk) 15:36, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Yorkshire College

@Storye book:, I am confused by Harrogate College and Yorkshire College in the article. Having checked the Wikipedia articles, in 1897 Yorkshire College probably means the future University of Leeds and Harrogate College probably means Harrogate Ladies' College. Do the sources mention both colleges? TSventon (talk) 12:59, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Neither. The links and names in the article are correct. The ones you are confused about are and were separate institutions.:

• 1. Harrogate Ladies College, a private school for girls in Harrogate. It still exists in a posh area of Harrogate, name unchanged. It costs a lot of money to go there, and in Laura Veale's time, the schoolgirls at that school were lucky and privileged. It has always been in Harrogate, which is a different town from Leeds.
• 2. Harrogate College. Today it is a state-run college in an industrial estate in Harrogate. It still has a good reputation.. Today, any state school pupil can attend for free, and retake GCSE's and A-Levels, or take those exams where their previous state school did not provide such an opportunity. Most pupils are between 16 and 18 years old, although there are also courses for adults. It has always been in Harrogate, although its examinations may be overseen by some University exam boards. Harrogate College was once called Yorkshire College, and maybe changed its name to Harrogate College because other institutions were calling themselves Yorkshire College.
• 3. University of Leeds. Completely different from the above, and nothing to do with Harrogate.. Leeds University has always been in Leeds, which is a different town from Harrogate, 20+ miles away.
• 4. Leeds School of Medicine was and is in Leeds. It was and is a medical institution, not a university, although now the University of Leeds has it under its administrative umbrella..

So the article is correct. Storye book (talk) 19:13, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, this is confusing, names like Yorkshire College or Harrogate College can be used by multiple institutions.

• 1. the article on Harrogate Ladies College says that Harrogate College was a boys' school in the 1880s, but closed some time after 1893. It does not say they were connected. I think that is the Harrogate College that helped Veale according to the BMJ obituary.
• 2. the article on Harrogate College says it started with university extension courses in the 19th century. Do you have a source to say it was called Yorkshire College in the 19th century? Or that Veale went there? It may well have been part of a Yorkshire College in the 20th century, there has been a lot of reorganisation.
• 3. the article on the University of Leeds says that it was known as the Yorkshire College when it absorbed the Leeds School of Medicine in 1884 and subsequently joined the federal Victoria University in 1897. Veale probably studied at the Yorkshire College, Leeds before applying to the Leeds School of Medicine in 1897, as mentioned in the quotation from her letter.
• 4. Leeds School of Medicine was part of the Yorkshire College but only joined the Victoria University in late 1897.

I found a BMJ listing here confirming that Veale had studied at Yorkshire College in or before 1897. TSventon (talk) 20:45, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I have added that reference to the article. Storye book (talk) 07:14, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Please could you respond to my points 1 to 3 from yesterday, including the questions, which I have now highlighted? TSventon (talk) 08:42, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I now believe your concerns in your points 1-3 above are justified. I had misunderstood the source (Reynard 1954), all because I missed one word ("also"). I have re-written the relevant part of the article, which should now fit what you say. If you have further concerns, please let me know. Storye book (talk) 11:13, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Harrogate College is still linked to Harrogate College, which I believe is incorrect. Harrogate College was a private school which closed in around 1900 so I don't think there was any connection with the current college apart from the name. I found an article about the girls' school in a 1960 issue of the Illustrated London News with snippet view in Google books, which said "Very shortly after Mr. Savery's death in 1903, however, the Boys' School ceased to exist". Apparently the girls' school used the name Harrogate College when the article was written, so mentions of Harrogate College in Wikipedia may refer to the boys' school, the girls' school or the FE college.

By the way, I would like to see what Reynard says about Harrogate College and Yorkshire College, could you quote it if it is not too lengthy? TSventon (talk) 18:30, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I have now created Harrogate College (Boys' School) as a redirect to Harrogate Ladies' College#History and updated the information about the former boys' school at the target. I hope everything now makes sense. TSventon (talk) 20:32, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Here is the part of Reynard's 1954 article that you asked for: I have highlighted the "also" which I had not spotted before. That word tells us that she studied maths at two different establishments, so that "Yorkshire College" probably means Leeds.

Dr Laura met early difficulties with regard to Matriculation. The 19th century educational standards for girls were low. Few girls' schools taught mathematics, science or Latin to satisfy the London Matriculation, and she went to the then Yorkshire College for tuition. She also needed coaching in maths and applied to the head master of the Harrogate College, Mr George Mearns Savery, for help: but he could not spare a master for private work. He suggested she should go to the college and work with the sixth form boys and the suggestion was accepted. Dr Laura was then in her 20s and there followed a period of eager study. Mr Savery was so much impressed by this example of the inadequacy of female education that he started a high school for girls, and it was so successful that it eventually became the Harrogate Ladies' College.

Thank you for your edit on the article. I was intending to do the header edit myself, but have not had enough time, so I appreciate your assistance. Storye book (talk) 08:49, 6 June 2024 (UTC)