Talk:Zionism

Role in Arab-Israeli Conflict

This added section appears simply to be taken from only one source (political activist Norman Finkelstein). Even the quotations from Ben-Gurion and Morris are merely taken from Finkelstein and represent his selections and interpretations of their words.

Definition of Zionism

Are there any widespread definitions of Zionism in RS that go beyond the current theoretical scope of "creating and maintaining a Jewish state", i.e. more practical ones relating to its expansionism? Makeandtoss (talk) 12:44, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Another try. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:10, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

There is the description of benny morris: "Zionist ideology and practice were necessarily and elementally expansionist" DMH223344 (talk) 16:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Something more factual and less of what would appear as an opinion? Makeandtoss (talk) 20:04, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Are you looking for statements from israeli officials? DMH223344 (talk) 00:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

No, but factual encyclopedia style definitions within the scope of it being Israel's national ideology; i.e. expansionist, settler-ist, etc. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:49, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

From Israel Shahak:

Zionism is an ideology. Its political/national form, with which this essay is concerned, is the foundation for the State of Israel’s national character. It dictates much of Israel’s foreign and domestic conduct. In the state’s international policies, Zionism is a major consideration along with the state’s militarism in shaping Israel’s territorial aspirations. In domestic affairs, the state’s “fundamental” or “basic” laws are predicated upon the basic Zionist concept that “the Jewish people” is included in Israel’s nationality constituency.

DMH223344 (talk) 16:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Also from this same collection of essays. ROSELLE TEKINER:

Israel was constructed on a model provided by political Zionism, the basic premise of which is that Israel is “the state of the Jews.”

DMH223344 (talk) 22:27, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

BCE and CE

It's BC and AD. No reason to change it except if you are offended by it's reference to Jesus. Using BC and AD doesn't mean you believe in Jesus. It's still the same point in time and by rejecting it's origin intentionally says alot about the lack of tolerance of those that change it. Woodmiser (talk) 12:46, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

See MOS:BCE.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 13:16, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

"doesn't mean you believe in Jesus" Actually it does... the the B one implies a claim to who J is, while the A one is a claim that J is ones lord. — al-Shimoni (talk) 16:28, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Modern Zionism

"Following the establishment of the modern state of Israel, Zionism became an ideology that supports the development and protection of the State of Israel as a Jewish state." this isn't an accurate definition of modern Zionism. Some varying definitions: the national ideology of Israel Vox Anyone has others that could be considered? Makeandtoss (talk) 20:19, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Very interestingly Pappe calls Zionism a state ideology which I personally think is a perfect characterization, that is certainly better and more reflective of reality than the “development and protection of Israel.” Any other sources have mentioned similar definitions? Makeandtoss (talk) 20:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Where did you find this? DMH223344 (talk) 22:37, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm only just starting to flip through the book, but "Zionism: an emotional state" by Penslar and the citations within looks like it could be useful here. DMH223344 (talk) 17:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

It was a podcast so not very relevant, should have been clearer. But is still in my opinion a perfect definition, not sure yet if it is supported by RS or not. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:51, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

"Political ideology" is very well represented in sources. "Development and protection" seems not quite right, the modern idea as I understand it is that Jews are a people or a nation and the State is supposed to be their "home", a sort of Jewish nationalism. Selfstudier (talk) 10:04, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

That sounds right, and is consistent historically as well. If you have specific sources I would appreciate if you could share. No need for page numbers. DMH223344 (talk) 14:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

There have been different sorts of Zionism over the years, supposedly secular, the version with a religious overlay has a hold these days. Selfstudier (talk) 14:27, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

On sourcing, idk where to start, there is plenty of it around, maybe start with Beyond the Nation-State: The Zionist Political Imagination from Pinsker to Ben-Gurion - Dmitry Shumsky Intro and conclusions. Selfstudier (talk) 14:34, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Saw that you added a vox citation for this. The author is zach beauchamp who also once wrote in vox that there is a bridge for palestinians to travel between the west bank and gaza. I don't think we should cite his work on this topic. DMH223344 (talk) 13:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

ethno-nationalist instead of nationalist

The lead says "Zionism (/ˈzaɪ.ənɪzəm/ ZY-ə-niz-əm; Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת, romanized: Ṣīyyonūt, IPA: [tsijoˈnut]; derived from Zion) is a nationalist movement" but isnt "ethnic-nationalist" more accurate. After all, in Israel there is no such thing as an Israeli national--only Jewish nationals. DMH223344 (talk) 22:21, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Lede

The following line is OR and UNDUE for lede and should be removed:

"Proponents of Zionism do not necessarily reject the characterization of Zionism as settler-colonial or exceptionalist."

The sources provided merely cite usage of those words, and do not clearly articulate non-rejection of the characterization as per its contemporary use. As per previous (unjustifiably reverted) edit, the usage of the words "settler" and "colonial" do not automatically confer "settler colonialism" by modern usage and definition. (Further reading and refs here re: widespread rejection of the application of the term by zionist commentators).

To the second point, the Finkelstein quote is in response to a *single* commentator. To invoke "proponents" would need more than reference to a single voice. Mistamystery (talk) 03:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I can't say I understand your objection to this content. Although probably we should specify that Zionists describing Zionism as colonialism was more common in the past and has fallen out of favour due to having negative connotations/reception today. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 16:34, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Sourced material is OR? Since when? Selfstudier (talk) 16:41, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Better wording and sources is possible, and I'm not sure what point is being made. Up to about the second half of the mandate period, Zionists nearly always referred to their enterprise as colonialist. That is true in all the Zionist Congressus up to at least 1937 (as far as I have the protocols). The 1937 protocols have about 100 uses of different forms of the word. The reason they were free with this description is that they didn't consider colonialism to be a negative thing. The attempt to whitewash this by claiming that the meaning of "colonialism" was different then fails for having no basis in fact. The meaning of the word is the same then and now; only the attitude of the world towards the practice has changed. The imperfect division of colonialism into settler and exploitative forms is a modern analysis, so we can't say that early Zionists called their enterprise settler-colonialist. Zero^talk 02:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Settler colonialism

Why is settler colonialism mentioned as a criticism of Zionism rather than how it is defined? It seems even Israeli historian Benny Morris has labelled it as such, and that its early proponents understood it as such. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:06, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed the description as a settler colonialist project should not be limited to the criticism section. DMH223344 (talk) 13:35, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Especially because before it went out of date, early Zionists explicitly referred to their ideology as colonial The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 14:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I also agree settler colonialism shouldn't be limited to the criticism section. But remember that "colonial" is not the same thing as "settler colonial"; Zionists referred to themselves as colonial, not settler colonial. Levivich (talk) 14:51, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

They did refer to themselves as settlers though. DMH223344 (talk) 16:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes and that's where confusion comes in. They described themselves as settlers and their venture as colonialism, but that is not an admission that Zionism is settler colonialism. Settler colonialism is a specific theory developed by Patrick Wolfe and others, and popularized in his 2006 paper, it's a term of art. People saying "we are settlers and colonists" 100 years before that aren't talking about Patrick Wolfe's theory; today, people who talk about settler colonialism are talking about Wolfe's theory. What I'm saying is we shouldn't confuse the words for the concept.

In fact, the reality is sort of the reverse: it's not that Zionists thought of themselves as settler-colonialists and Wolfe documented it; it's more the opposite, Wolfe used the term "settler colonialism" to describe Zionism and other similar colonialism (e.g. USA, Europe) and to distinguish it from "regular" or traditional colonialism (the non-settling kind of colonialism). Because settler colonialism is a 21st-century concept, 19th-century uses of the words "settler" and "colonialism," even used together, are not and cannot be a reference to the 21st-century concept.

BTW, to be clear, that doesn't mean Zionism isn't settler colonialism, it just means that Zionists couldn't have described themselves as settler colonialists because the concept had not been invented yet. Can't use 19th-century writing as an admission of a 21st-century concept. Levivich (talk) 17:16, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I see, was not aware of that. Would it then be more technical to simply refer to it as “colonial” in this case? The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 05:29, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I think so. There was discussion about this recently on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict page, and consensus to refer to Zionism as both "immigration" and "colonization", and Zionists as both "immigrants" and "settlers", because sources seem to use all that language interchangeably. Levivich (talk) 13:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Immigrants? What type of immigrant starts a revolution and creates a political regime supported by its own military forces? Dimadick (talk) 15:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Not quite like that and the British/allied powers helped things along. Selfstudier (talk) 15:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I think Jews who moved to Palestine/Israel were all "settlers" before 1948 and "immigrants" after 1948, but the sources don't agree with me. Levivich (talk) 15:51, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

However, under current terminology settlers who seek to colonize and harbour the intent to displace the local population are settler colonialists, not conventional colonialists, who preeminently seek to extract resources. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I actually disagree with the dependence on Wolfe's theory of settler colonialism especially considering there are other conceptions of settler colonialism. See Englert:

For instance, in explaining the difference between settler and franchise colonies, Wolfe wrote: ‘In contrast to the kind of colonial formation that Cabral or Fanon confronted, settler colonies were not primarily established to extract surplus value from indigenous labour. Rather, they are premised on displacing indigenes from (or replacing them on) the land.’24 A striking issue with this formulation is that Algeria – the colonial formation confronted by Fanon – was a French settler colony. Similarly, Veracini, in his Settler Colonialism: A Theoretical Overview, writes, ‘while the suppression of indigenous and exogenous alterities characterises both colonial and settler colonial formations, the former can be summarised as domination for the purpose of exploitation, the latter as domination for the purpose of transfer.’

Which also explains that there are fundamental aspects of settler vs franchise colonialism that can apply, even if we don't take eg Wolfe's theory exactly. DMH223344 (talk) 15:56, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

The diverging colonial approaches seem pretty well understood in the literature, regardless of the precise terminology used. It seems clear that the concept preceded the term, just as the concept of colonialism in general preceded 20th-century colonial studies. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Some sources referring to Zionism as settler-colonialism:

Masalha:

Zionist settler-colonialism is at the heart of the conflict in Palestine; settler-colonialism is a structure not an episode (Wolfe 2006). Zionist settler-colonialism is deeply rooted in European colonialism. Ignoring the existence and rights of indigenous peoples, British colonialists often saw large parts of the earth as terra nullius, ‘nobody’s land’. This (originally Roman legal) expression was used to describe territory which was not subject to the sovereignty of any European state – sovereignty over territory which is terra nullius may be acquired through occupation and/or settler-colonisation.

Cleveland:

Zionism was a settler colonial movement, very much like the movement of other Europeans who moved to the Americas, parts of Africa as well as Australia and New Zealand.

Pappe:

Zionism as a settler colonial movement was able to colonize Palestine almost in its entirety regardless of its demographic minority.

Shlaim:

The Zionist movement was a settler-colonial movement, which had its roots in late nineteenth-century Europe, as a response to the problem of European antisemitism.

DMH223344 (talk) 16:15, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

You are quoting sources famously known for their critical view of Zionism, they do not represent the mainstream view of the movement. HaOfa (talk) 17:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

You can add Al-Haq and 90 Palestinian and international organisations that "sent a joint submission to the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory examining Zionist settler colonialism and apartheid as the root causes of Israel’s ongoing violations of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people."

Not entirely sure what you mean by "mainstream" (or when) but the settler colonial paradigm is clearly a significant view that cannot be blithely dismissed. Selfstudier (talk) 17:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@Selfstudier, you seem like an experienced editor, and at this point I suppose it should be clear that advocacy organizations are not reliable sources. I also agree with the above: Ilan Pappe, Nur Masalha, and Avi Shlaim are known for their critical analysis, often presenting fringe views, of Zionism and Israel. Pappe himself was a central figure in Hadash, a far-left party in Israel, and multiple reliable sources label him a controversial figure. I see no reason to change the current lead, which accurately portrays the settler-colonialist view as a critical view. I'm really noticing more and more of these fringe views taking center stage in these articles, and honestly, it's starting to be really concerning. ABHammad (talk) 07:14, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

"Critical analysis" is a set term that doesn't mean what I think you think it does; "critical analysis" means that their efforts are thorough and in-depth, and it's a compliment. Critical analysis is exactly what we would want here. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:38, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

You understood what I meant. ABHammad (talk) 07:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but the reason why "critical analysis" contains the word "critical" is because the obvious truth that only true "critics" tend to provide the most thorough, in-depth and no-holds barred analysis. In the analysis and assessment of an ideology, ideological insiders are hardly going to provide the most fullsome or critical analysis. Who would you have do the analysis here? What's the mainstream, and how do you define it? Iskandar323 (talk) 08:31, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Exactly, the "critical" in "critical analysis" is a reference to critical thinking, not criticism. Levivich (talk) 15:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

You are at liberty to add contradictory sourcing, dismissing sourcing that you don't like as fringe is insufficient. If it is fringe, then finding a reliable source saying that should be possible. Selfstudier (talk) 09:09, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

This is Levivich comment from Nakba talk page:

"FYI see sources/quotes at Talk:Zionism as settler colonialism#Sources, including this one: Pappe 2020 (free): Still, despite a body of scholarship and research that frames the Zionist movement as a settler-colonial project—including the relatively new Settler Colonial Studies, a journal that, at this writing, has already devoted two special issues to Palestine—such a depiction is not accepted in mainstream academia (or the media generally). By and large, Israel/Palestine is still perceived as a conflict between two national movements that are equally responsible for violence—one of them a Western-style democracy that occasionally resorts to excessive power, and the other an Arab society endowed with a violent political culture. Of course there are other views (and maybe even a more recent one from Pappe, idk), but the complications are that: some RS say it's colonialism, some say it's settler-colonialism, some say neither, some say it was one of those things at some points in time and another one at other points in time, some say it's a mixture, etc."

So Pappe thinks it is but at least in 2020 admits it is not "mainstream". It is still a significant view though and is not anyway a criticism as such, it's a description.

Sabbagh-Khoury (2022) says "For now, the settler colonial paradigm is the work of a relatively small group of scholars, but their numbers are increasing rapidly, in part because it is becoming a project of collective study carried out in cooperation with international scholars, not the theoretical occupation of few isolated individuals." Clearly not fringe. Selfstudier (talk) 12:55, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Your quote explicitly says "small group of scholars" (with the rest all crystal ball) and then you say "clearly not fringe". What's the point in quoting a source if you're ignoring what it says? HaOfa (talk) 08:59, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

And what is the point in ignoring the rest of the sentence? Selfstudier (talk) 09:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Crystal ball claims, the current situation is what it is, a small group of scholars promoting this view. It totally doesn't matter if there is a cooperation with international scholars (as opposed to Palestinian ones), they could be part of a fringe group as well.

Pappe is a former politician associated with a far-left group who openly identifies as anti-Zionist, while he is entitled to his opinions, his stance doesn't necessarily indicate a mainstream following. There's zero base for this whole thing... HaOfa (talk) 09:08, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

You are aware that the article Zionism as settler colonialism exists? In other words, it is a notable subject. Selfstudier (talk) 09:04, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Notable, maybe, but again that doesn't change the fact it is a fringe view. There is an article on Modern flat Earth beliefs, does that make it a mainstream view? HaOfa (talk) 09:10, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

No, it means that it is a notable subject, that is, there is a sufficiency of reliable sources dealing with the topic. I'm still waiting for anyone with an actual source saying that ZaSC is fringe as opposed to merely expressing their own opinion that it is. Selfstudier (talk) 09:14, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

this is unwise, when a theory is fringe, you won't find many sources that would say it is fringe - they would just ignore it. In this way we will just perpetuate fringe views. HaOfa (talk) 09:20, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Poppycock. Selfstudier (talk) 09:21, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Wolfe's seminal 2006 paper on this has 7,500+ Google scholar cites. "Fringe"? Lol. Levivich (talk) 13:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Who said we are quoting what the movement says about itself? We are quoting what reliable sources are saying; reliable sources by scholars. Pappe and Shlaim are two of the most prominent historians in the field and can certainly not be dismissed as "fringe". Makeandtoss (talk) 14:26, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Non Jewish Support

I think this section needs more ideological variety, one example is Ho Chi Minh who frequently communicated with Ben-Gurion as shown here; [1] Another example is Civil rights Icon Bayard Rustin; [2], [3]https://www.jns.org/rustin-sowell-and-renewing-black-jewish-relations/

I am sure there are many others but I have to go, and It would be hard to find several at the current moment. Thank you for your patience.

You should also include Ber Borochov and Meir Vilner in the variants section, for the rare Communist Zionism. Emma Lazarus was also a Zionist.

Two more sources for Kurds and Mandeanism; 70.23.5.67 (talk) 12:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

https://escholarship.org/content/qt2ds1052b/qt2ds1052b_noSplash_b0b0087d30def88f05e48b5dc022997b.pdf?t=py0wm5 I meant this 70.23.5.67 (talk) 12:45, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Not done, unclear, please make edit requests in the form change X to Y, sourced appropriately.Selfstudier (talk) 11:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)