Talk:State of Palestine

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Requested move 18 April 2024[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 21:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

– Per WP:COMMONNAME and the upcoming UNSC vote on Friday to have Palestine upgraded as a UN member, I suggest this article be renamed to simply "Palestine" like all other country articles in this Wikipedia. It doesn't make sense to use Ireland as the Republic of Ireland or the Republic of China as two articles with one on the mainland and the other on Taiwan. Even the Google Trends uses Palestine more than the State of Palestine itself. Kindly keep this debate civil. Silence of Lambs (talk) 00:03, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What impact would UN recognition have on the name of the article? Remsense诉 00:40, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Citing WP:COMMONNAME makes no sense here. The page is at a WP:NATDIS of "Palestine". A move request would have to address WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, not COMMONNAME. Further, the country Ireland is at Republic of Ireland, and the country Republic of China is at Taiwan, so I don't understand those analogies. CMD (talk) 01:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leaning oppose. The title has long been a disambiguation page because there are various regions with differing borders that have been called "Palestine" historically, and moving this article to that title would appear to denigrate the significance of all previous forms. BD2412 T 01:11, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose While I am sympathetic to the idea, this has been discussed formally several times before and informally as well. Palestine is presently a disambiguation and the background to that is all the reasons why this move never succeeds. I would be willing to look at this favorably if SoP is accepted as a UN member state, as that would lead to substantive changes across wiki and not necessarily just here. Selfstudier (talk) 10:27, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As I write, the US has vetoed the resolution in a 12, 2, 1 vote. Selfstudier (talk) 23:15, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Given that we call Palestine a country, I cannot see why we would not title it as we do other countries. Are there other countries with a "Republic of..." page? DenverCoder19 (talk) 04:16, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If you read anything above, you would've seen Republic of Ireland cited as an example, yes. Remsense诉 04:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    See also both Congos. CMD (talk) 05:07, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Support There are two Ireland — the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland in the Ireland region. In the case of Palestinian region, only one country with that exists, which is the State of Palestine. So yes I guess it should changed to Palestine. Also, people commonly used to call it by the name Palestine. Not the State of Palestine Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 06:33, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Again, it's not a question of WP:COMMONNAME, but WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. In other words: when people say "Palestine", are they usually referring to the region, or the specific government? Remsense诉 06:43, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It refers to Palestine the country, which is of Palestinians, the Arabs. People don't have much specific knowledge that Palestine is also the name of a geographic region. Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 07:05, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – unless WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is demonstrated, per reply above. Remsense诉 06:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Support What if we moved the title to Palestine (country), or moving disambiguation link to Palestine (disambiguation) Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 07:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Generally, we want to avoid parenthetical disambiguators whenever possible: "State of Palestine" is much preferable than Palestine (state) etc. Remsense诉 07:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose per WP:NOPRIMARY and WP:NATDIS. With a bit of WP:RECENTISM, sure the State of Palestine is the primary topic. But the wider region of Palestine has been known by that name for centuries, so my concern is with long-term significance of the state versus that of the wider region. estar8806 (talk) ★ 11:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as we had one of these recently did we not, and nothing new has, been brought forward. Many places have multiple pages on differing aspects UK britain British Isle We need to differentiate between the region and the state. Slatersteven (talk)
  • Oppose We do have a precedent, since Ireland refers to the island and not the southern state. The administration in Ramallah is a rather shaky regime which does not even have de facto control of the whole of the West Bank. Recognition by the UN doesn't alter this. Many people will continue to consider that the term refers to the whole country or region. PatGallacher (talk) 15:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not "recognition by the UN", the UN does not recognize states, it admits recognized states as member states under certain rules. Selfstudier (talk) 17:07, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – It would sacrifice accuracy between historical Palestine and the current state. Svartner (talk) 17:58, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support pretty sure the primary topic is the country, and that people don't say Palestine thinking about Tel Aviv. At least in English. Super Ψ Dro 11:53, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The historic region is just as significant as the modern state. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:20, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose: I think if anything, the title "Palestine" should direct straight to Palestine (region), as this is, to me, the obvious common usage. I do not think people input the term "Palestine" hoping to read solely about the nominal authority of the PA within the 1967 borders; I suspect more are interested in historic Palestine. However, these two meanings are certainly overwhelmingly predominant and I think the base term should indeed direct to one of them, while directing misdirected users to both the other and the disambiguation page in the hatnotes. The current state of affairs, having the base name go to neither the state nor the region, but instead the overly complex disambiguation page, does not serve readers well. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:23, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My assessment appears to be largely confirmed by Wikinav. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:25, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 April 2024[edit]

In the very last sentence of the lead (paragraph 4), please revise the following sentence from: It is one of the most educated countries the Arab world and the Middle East and hold massive reserves of oil and gas.

to: It is one of the most educated countries in the Arab world and the Middle East, with massive reserves of oil and gas. …or at least something similar, thanks! DS537(WIR) 14:13, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Jamedeus (talk) 17:49, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Copy editing/maintenance needed[edit]

In this edit from earlier this month and others, @Kharbaan Ghaltaan rewrote (without edit summary) much of the lead, introducing imprecise/unencyclopedic purple prose like Palestine's ancient history spans thousands of years, with its crossroads location witnessing the rise and fall of empires, shaping world history and removing some of the language that discussed Palestine's limited recognition/control over its territory. It appears that this article is surprisingly poorly monitored and that many of the deleterious contributions have not been reverted or fixed up. Could some more experienced editors review the edit history and make changes as needed? Sdkb talk 18:22, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notified: WT:ISRAEL, WT:PALESTINE. Sdkb talk 18:23, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would agree with reversion there, a couple of changes I'd agree with but overall very flowery language. CMD (talk) 01:22, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redundancy in lead of the article.[edit]

There may be some redundancy in the first paragraph of the lead of the article. The lead currently mentions that Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital twice with only one sentence in between. This feels redundant, and, if others agree, someone should remove either the first mention or the second mention (I suggest the first, because the sentence where the second one is mentioned is more related to geography, however, I don't particularly mind). Thank you in advance, and have a nice day! 90.139.2.187 (talk) 18:59, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Selfstudier (talk) 19:04, 29 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious and poorly referenced sentence fragment in Wikipedia's "State of Palestine"[edit]

[Please note that this comment is unrelated to the violence and conflict re Israel and Gaza that is happening now.] Under the heading "Early Religious"(sic) is a sentence beginning: "Jesus performed miracles, ..." referenced to item 39. I am upset that Wikipedia did not correct this statement, which was published as factual. "Jesus performed miracles, ..." is not factual, it is an item of traditional Christian doctrine. Rularue (talk) 01:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've tried to address this with this edit. Sean.hoyland (talk) 02:40, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Correcting sentence in lead[edit]

In the lead, it says "It is officially recognized as a state by the United Nations and numerous countries." I understand this last bit is imprecise, as "numerous" may mean 20 or 30, while the real number is significant: 140 of 193 UN members, meaning 72.5%; for that, I would suggest correcting the bit "and numerous countries" to "and by the vast majority of the world's countries". 2A02:14F:177:44BB:A5D4:927E:38DF:5A18 (talk) 12:03, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Selfstudier (talk) 12:38, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like to follow on that. It's materially incorrect to talk about "recognition as a state by the UN", since the UN has no power to determine sovereignty. We've been having similar discussions with regard to certain partially recognised states aligned with Russia, and the editors' consensus there seemed to follow the academic consensus within the framework of the constitutive theory: Westphalian sovereignty is defined only through recognition by other states, as every state has a sovereign right to recognise and treat another polity as its equal.
For this reason, Wikipedia talks about "states with limited recognition", i.e., those whose sovereignty has not been recognised by a majority of other states.
However, the UN, being essentially an intergovernmental association, has no accepted powers to determine the Westphalian sovereignty of any polity. The most the UN can do is to allow or disallow its membership.
My recommendation is to rework the lead section so that UN membership is not presented as linked to sovereignty. — kashmīrī TALK 13:27, 2 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not personally bothered by the wording here, quite happy to let the legal eagles argue the toss about it. However it is worth mentioning that 2011 vote is actually considered a de facto (not de jure) recognition which has had an impact on the question of Palestinian statehood in international law, for example, the ICC took it into account in deciding that Palestine was as a "state party", allowed to bring a case there.
These days, the consensus is not so much either the constitutive or the declarative but some more practical realization of both. Certainly the US sees the Palestinian membership debate at the UN as being directly linked to statehood, although that is probably a political position rather than anything else.
Another go round shortly :) Selfstudier (talk) 13:17, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
2011 vote is actually considered a de facto (not de jure) recognition. This might have been the case for some Western European or American countries, I don't know. Much of the remaining world has been having diplomatic relations with Palestine for a decade or two, with Palestnian embassies operating in many of the world's capitals and Palestinian ambassadors being normal members of the diplomatic corps. — kashmīrī TALK 13:29, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

International recognition by UN members[edit]

Trinidad and Tobago recognized the State of Palestine on 2 May 2024.

The number of UN members that recognize the State of Palestine needs to be updated to 141. Surfacedextrous (talk) 06:16, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some debate going on about what the exact number is right now, at Talk:Foreign_relations of the State of Palestine#140 and at Talk:International recognition of the State of Palestine, suggest the discussion take place only at the latter article until resolved. Selfstudier (talk) 09:41, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 May 2024[edit]

In the first one or two paragraphs there is a grammatical error, with the article saying “it have a combined area” instead of “it has”, the latter being correct. MrGamerMooseBTW (talk) 12:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done — kashmīrī TALK 14:05, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just for one of two grammar mistakes you can't change whole section Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 15:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Introdution fourth paragraph. Edits needed[edit]

"The Palestinian Authority governs parts of the West Bank while Hamas controls the Gaza Strip. Currently the country is challenging from expansion of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories, impact of occupation, settler violence, blockade by Israel, restrictions on movement and ongoing security concerns. Current effort is advancing the Palestinian cause and achieving a just and lasting resolution to the conflict."

The second sentence is not in proper engligh. The third sentence is both subjective and flat out wrong. Personally I would change it to 'unsuccessful efforts have been made to solve the conflict' then bang on a source. Firestar47 (talk) 08:29, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done, thanks. — kashmīrī TALK 00:00, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Strange Sentence in History Section[edit]

Under the "History" section, there is a sentence which does not appear to make much sense. It reads:

"Abdul Hamid, the last Khalifa of the world, oppose Zionist movement, but failed." My problems with this sentence are twofold: Firstly, it is not grammatically correct, as it should read "Abdul Hamid, the last Khalifa of the world, opposed Zionist movement, but failed." Secondly, it does not convey much encyclopedic information. How did he "oppose Zionist movement"? This is not elaborated upon in the text to my knowledge. Why does the article refer to Abdul Hamid as "the last Khalifa of the world"? This title is not used in Hamid's main article, and it appears to be invented by whoever wrote it.

Can this sentence be excised or altered to be more encyclopedic? Thanks. JohnR1Roberts (talk) 14:09, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. @JohnR1Roberts, is it more acceptable now? — kashmīrī TALK 16:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I like the new wording. JohnR1Roberts (talk) 16:37, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Picture in the "Art, Music, and Clothing" Section[edit]

Under the 'Art, music, and clothing' Section there is a picture of 'Palestinian children in their traditional dress'. The picture itself was taken in London (on Oct. 9th 2023), and it is not clear this has anything to do with 'traditional Palestinian clothing'. The picture does contain a political message which is irrelevant to the information discussed in the section, and in addition contains a short manifesto in text when opened "There are more than two million people living there, and this brutal form of collective punishment is clearly a war crime which threatens the lives of all of them...". I suggest deleting this picture or finding a more suitable image which is relevant to the information discussed.— Preceding unsigned comment added by an unspecified IP address

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 May 2024[edit]

Please change the first sentence from: "Palestine (Arabic: فلسطين, romanized: Filasṭīn), officially the State of Palestine (دولة فلسطين, Dawlat Filasṭīn), is a country in the southern Levant region of West Asia."

"To:

"Palestine (Arabic: فلسطين, romanized: Filasṭīn), officially the State of Palestine (دولة فلسطين, Dawlat Filasṭīn), is a territory in the southern Levant region of West Asia."

This change aims to reflect a more neutral stance by describing Palestine as a territory, acknowledging the disputed nature of its status.

Sources:

United Nations General Assembly Resolution A/RES/67/19U.S.

Department of State - Country Profiles

European Union - External Action Service, "EU Relations with Palestine" ヘンドリックス (talk) 20:10, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done. Has been discussed more than once. The clue is in the name "State of...Selfstudier (talk) 21:09, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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