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Introduction[edit]

The purpose of this discussion page is to select 10,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles. All Wikipedia editors are welcome to participate. Individual topics are proposed for addition or removal, followed by discussion and !voting. It is also possible to propose a swap of a new topic for a lower-priority topic already on the list. All level 4 nominations must be of an article already listed at level 5.

All discussions will remain open for a minimum of 15 days.

  1. After 15 days any proposal may be closed as PASSED if a) at least five !votes have been cast in support, and b) at least two-thirds of the total !votes support the proposal.
  2. After 30 days any proposal may be closed as FAILED if it has a) earned at least 3 opposes, and b) failed to earn two-thirds support.
  3. After 30 days any proposal may be closed as NO CONSENSUS if the proposal hasn't received any !votes for 30 or more days regardless of the !vote tally.
  4. After 60 days any proposal may be closed as NO CONSENSUS if it has a) failed to earn at least 5 support !votes, and b) earned less than two-thirds support.

Nominations should generally be left open beyond the above-listed minimums if they have a reasonable chance of passing. Please be patient with our process. We believe that an informed discussion with more editors is likely to produce an improved and more stable final list. When proposing to add or remove a particular topic from the vital articles list, we strongly recommend that you review and compare the other topics in the same category in order to get a better sense of what is considered vital in that area.

When you are making a decision whether to add or remove a particular topic from the Vital Articles Level 4 list, we strongly recommend that you review and compare the other topics in the same category in order to get a better sense of what other topics are considered vital in that area. We have linked the sublists at the top of each proposal area.

  • 15 days ago: 16:32, 30 April 2024 (UTC) (Purge)
  • 30 days ago: 16:32, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
  • 60 days ago: 16:32, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Add Polish literature or swap with Jewish literature or Ancient Egyptian literature[edit]

Polish literature compared with Jewish has 2x interwiki links, equal page views, and equal number of Nobel prize lauratates (3 each, one of who, Singer, is Polish-Jewish). IMHO comparable to for example Spanish literature or such we list. Another swap to consider would be Ancient Egyptian literature which is of historical significance only and unlike Ancient Greek, Roman or Chinese diud not produce any enduing classics (side note here: we list Ancient Greek literature; sadly, neither Ancient Roman literature nor Ancient Roman literature nor Ancient Chinese literature have articles - the latter is just a redirect; to what degree with this overlaps with Chinese classics (V5) I am not sure ATM). Chinese classics may merit V4 discussion too. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. As nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:15, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I certainly support adding Polish literature which is the oldest continuesly existing Slavic literatures, and arguably one of the two most important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcelus (talk • contribs)
  3. Support --Thi (talk) 12:57, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose. Not sure that the swapping of Jewish or Egyptian literature is correct (both are historically important and of foundation in all literature). I would need to see a stronger case as to why Polish literature (as a standalone nom) is important in a world context? Aszx5000 (talk) 20:53, 15 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose removals. Polish literature is potentially level 4 vital with figures such as Czesław Miłosz  5 but Jewish and Ancient Egypt literature are even more important. The Blue Rider 20:44, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. We list very few country literature articles and the countries we do list have been much more influential in literature than Poland has (France, Japan, Russia etc.). I'd much rather see American literature or British literature added first, both of whom have more than 2 times as many monthly pageviews (we already list English literature  3 but it is VA3). Aurangzebra (talk) 05:07, 28 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. per Aszx5000 and Aurangzebra. starship.paint (RUN) 01:07, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion

Add Top[edit]

Classic toy. More interwikis (if less daily views) than Yo-yo  4 or Frisbee  4 we list here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:11, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Support as nom --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Sure. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:29, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. The entertainment of many. The Blue Rider 17:41, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:05, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Erbil[edit]

Capital and largest city of the Kurdistan Region, an ethnically and culturally distinct part of Iraq. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:26, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 02:26, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Seems important enough, capital of an important region and dates back to the 5th millennium BC. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:40, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 18:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 18:14, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. I think V4 should have cities that people actually are likely to hear about on the global level. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:41, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Most people are ignorant so well-knownness is not a good metric. The Blue Rider 18:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would agree. Most Americans probably couldn't name two cities in Poland, but we have six cities in Poland on the VA4 list. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I actually reckon most Americans wouldn't be able to name one Polish city, for what it's worth. J947 ‡ edits 21:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe I should say "most reasonably well educated people, interested in global history and events"? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:49, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it comes up fairly frequently in those circles to be honest. Due to war, I guess, but seems an odd reason to oppose. J947 ‡ edits 03:22, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Iraq's size justifies listing a 4th city in addition to Baghdad, Mosul, and Basra, and Erbil stood out to me too as an omission when I checked over the list recently (certainly a notable city on a global scale). I've got a couple of qualms though. Firstly, it's not that big with a population of less than a million; Kirkuk is Iraq's 4th biggest city instead. Secondly, and more importantly, Erbil is right next door to Mosul, just 75 km between them. I'll probably support, but these are factors worth dwelling on. J947 ‡ edits 21:12, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm I just noticed that we don't have Diyarbakır (another Kurdish-majority city) at V4, and it's a larger city than Erbil. I'll propose adding that. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:00, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Rhine-Ruhr metropolitan region[edit]

Per @Aszx5000 recent note in the level 3 discussion. The Rhine-Ruhr region stands as one of the pivotal centers in Europe. Germany has only one other region at level 4, despite being the most influential country in Europe and the most populous in the EU. Respublik (talk) 14:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. As nominator. Respublik (talk) 14:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. I’d add North Rhine-Westphalia first, since states are more vital than metro regions, and since no other metro regions are V5. I’d also promote Berlin to V3 first. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 14:52, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Support for an alternative addition of North Rhine-Westphalia (reasonable for me). I guess it's a matter of which association is more of a priority between a more formal/historical or a more urbanistic one. I could also argue that just the Rhine-Ruhr's setup at 2/3 of the state's GDP (and at European context) has a better likeness at the XXI century to the historical importance of Rhineland, but then again it's a part of it. Respublik (talk) 15:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

I'm skeptical if there exist a spot in the current quota to add Berlin at V3. It would require more places for cities. Respublik (talk) 15:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Meta list has 45 cities, so I’d probably redistribute some articles and/or increase quota by ~40% for all levels to reflect the growing size of the encyclopedia. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 22:42, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

African capitals: swap Gaborone and Windhoek out for Bangui and Nouakchott[edit]

Gaborone  4 and Windhoek  4 are significantly smaller cities in smaller countries than Bangui  5 and Nouakchott  5. The current listing is a result of bias against CAR and Mauritania, less generally visible African countries in English media than Botswana and Namibia.

Support
  1. Support as nom. J947 ‡ edits 00:59, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 01:04, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 14:26, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose removals. The Blue Rider 19:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mixed
Discussion
  • Not too sure, Botswana and Namibia are more economically powerful. The Blue Rider 06:05, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Swap: Eisaku Satō  4 for Nobusuke Kishi  5[edit]

Eisaku Satō was certainly an important politician for his time, as one of the longer-serving Japanese prime ministers and the signatory of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, but I'm not sure what distinguishes him so much that he is listed alongside Meiji, Hirohito, Tojo and Abe. On the other hand, his brother Nobusuke Kishi is vital to understanding modern Japanese politics: he ruled Manchukuo, for which he was nicknamed the "Monster of the Shōwa era"; he was a high-level member of the civil-military dictatorship, even helping to bring down Tojo's government; he was considered a class-A war criminal, but never tried by the United States, as they considered him the best man to rule Japan after the war; he founded the Liberal Democratic Party, which has governed Japan as its dominant party since the 1950s; he helped establish the Asian Development Bank; he played a central role in the post-war rehabilitation of convicted war criminals; he was the focus of mass protests against his rule in 1960; he was a key influence on Korean dictator Park Chung-hee; and he helped bring the Unification Church into the government. Kishi has had an undeniably enduring effect on Japanese (and East Asian) politics up until this very day, and I think he is certainly vital enough for level 4. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Support as nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Occupational therapy[edit]

We are currently under quota for Biology and health sciences, and occupational therapy feels just as important as a health care profession as Physical therapy  4 and Radiation therapy  4, both of which are at V4.

Support
  1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:16, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Add Talaat Pasha  5[edit]

This politician no doubt should be added, since he was the de facto supreme leader of the Ottoman Empire after 1914 (another man of the Three Pashas, Enver Pasha, is currently listed), and the main perpetrator of the Armenian Genocide (which is currently listed), besides, he is considered the de-facto builder of Modern Turkey by Hans-Lukas Kieser[talaat 1].

Support
  1. As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 03:08, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom. Also worth noting that the trial of his assassin directly inspired Rafael Lemkin's development of his ideas on prosecuting genocide. Talaat's biography is absolutely vital at this level. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:36, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:32, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 09:14, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss
  1. ^ Hero, founder, or criminal? Talaat is still alive and well in Turkey - Turkish Minute

Add various health science subjects (part 2)[edit]

Above a group of medical subjects was nominated as a batch because they had unanimously passed at Level 5 and it seems some of them are on their way to passing here. So here is another batch of unanimous level 5 passes. Since these took longer to achieve unanimous level 5 pass that may or may not indicate they are less vital. However, let's discuss the following.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Search and rescue[edit]

Support
  1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss
  • If the nominator presents a rationale for the inclusion I might support it. The Blue Rider 17:39, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dressing (medicine)[edit]

Support
  1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. If I'm not mistaken a compress is a type of bandage, if so, oppose on the basis that it is too specific. The Blue Rider 17:34, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Personal protective equipment[edit]

Support
  1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support a broad category with wide relevance Lorax (talk) 06:12, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support per above. starship.paint (RUN) 03:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Adhesive bandage[edit]

Support
  1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Widely used but redudant to the broader article Bandage  4. The Blue Rider 17:27, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Boot (medicine)[edit]

  • This is the stubbiest vital article I have seen, but hopefully its new VA-status will draw attention of knowledgeable editors.
Support
  1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. In no universe this is level 4 vitality. The Blue Rider 17:23, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Retainer (orthodontics)[edit]

Support
  1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. A lot of these are commonly used, but to be sincere, equipments are normally too specific to level 4 vitality. Search and rescue, pulmonology, first aid are all better candidates. The Blue Rider 17:33, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose agree with the Blue Rider. Gizza (talk) 23:50, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

First responder[edit]

Support
  1. Support as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD), 17:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Diyarbakır[edit]

Diyarbakır is the largest Kurdish-majority city in Turkey and a focal point for ethnic conflict.

Support
  1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:17, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. This or add Konya; see #Remove Eskişehir. J947 ‡ edits 03:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

There are larger Kurdish-plurality cities, such as Kirkuk. OhnoitsvileplumeXD (talk) 15:46, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think Diyarbakır's larger than Kirkuk. J947 ‡ edits 03:37, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Swap: Remove Guangxi  4, add Zhejiang  5[edit]

Zhejiang has a higher population and much larger economy than Guangxi.

Support
  1. As nominator. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 16:31, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support per nom (for those interested, I think we list one city in each of these Chinese provinces). J947 ‡ edits 03:12, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    We don't list Haikou  5, Hohhot  5, Xining  5 and Yinchuan  5, not that I necessarily think we should. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:13, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. makes sense Aurangzebra (talk) 06:07, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Mixed
Discuss

Add the remaining actinides[edit]

The articles in question are:

It doesn’t make sense to me why the highest element we list is californium. I think this discussion is a good indicator of the vitality of elements with super high atomic numbers. I would be open to removing some elements starting from americium since the first ninety four elements are naturally occurring. Interstellarity (talk) 18:53, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Interstellarity (talk) 18:53, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Personally I'd rather remove some, if any change should be made. J947 ‡ edits 03:10, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per Marchantiophyta. feminist🩸 (talk) 14:08, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discussion

Synthetic element  4 is listed; note past discussions here and here. J947 ‡ edits 03:10, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, Californium is the heaviest element with real-world applications so it's a reasonable place to stop. A case could maybe be made for Einsteinium as the heaviest element produced in visible quantities, but the remaining actinides are just too immaterial (figuratively and literally) to be "important". --Marchantiophyta (talk) 00:31, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Swap: Remove Melastomataceae  4, add Brassicaceae  5[edit]

The Brassicaceae are a POWERHOUSE of a family, containing Arabidopsis thaliana  4, Bok choy  5, Bomdong  5, Broccoli  4, Brussels sprout  5, Cabbage  4, Cauliflower  4, Chinese cabbage  4, Choy sum  5, Collard (plant)  4, Daikon  4, Eruca vesicaria  4, Gai lan  5, Garden cress  5, Horseradish  4, Kale  4, Kohlrabi  4, Mustard plant  5, Radish  4, Rapeseed  4, Rapini  5, Rutabaga  4, Savoy cabbage  5, Turnip  4, Wasabi  5, and Watercress  5 (and hosting Pieris brassicae  4). Members of the family are found almost everywhere on earth and fill a wide variety of niches.

The Melastomataceae are one of the larger plant families, notable for being… not all that notable? They're common in the tropics, diverse in form, contain a number of ornamental plants, and see some use in traditional medicine – but these are all true of many other plant families not at level 4. The lack of culturally/economically/culinarily significant members is surprising given the size of the group, and size alone is not a good measure of vitality (arguments for including the nth largest family are generally applicable to the n+1th largest, and the n+2th largest, and so on).

Support
  1. As nominator --Marchantiophyta (talk) 01:09, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:25, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 09:13, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support --Thi (talk) 19:36, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support Lorax (talk) 02:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Just to clarify, my proposal is to demote Melastomataceae to level 5 and promote Brassicaceae to level 4. -- Marchantiophyta (talk) 02:16, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove History of Iraq  4[edit]

Iraq  4 is only VA4, and History of the Middle East  3 covers it decently well, plus there are a lot of other Middle East countries with their histories at VA4. I think that the history of a VA4 country should be at VA5.

Support
  1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:55, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Per below. Vileplume (talk) 20:39, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
  1. It's a special case due to the importance in history of Mesopotamia, which is today Iraq. (sdsds - talk) 23:17, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Then swap this for History of Mesopotamia. QuicoleJR (talk) 00:49, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Which is not even V5. Vileplume (talk) 01:28, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Move Aung San Suu Kyi  4 to politicians and leaders[edit]

While she was once most notable as an incarcerated opposition leader (which she has become again funnily enough), I'd argue she is now more well-known as the first non-military head of government of Myanmar in decades (not to mention her position as a human rights darling being overshadowed by her actions in power). her father, Aung San  4, never got to lead Burma as an independent country before he was assassinated so I think he still listed there but, Suu Kyi, no.

Support
  1. Iostn (talk) 22:19, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Agreed feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 04:49, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Her fame and vitality come from her past human rights track record and her Nobel Peace Prize. She didn't particularly do anything VA4-worthy in politics, especially considering how she only ended up being mildly better than her predecessors when it came to defending human and civil rights, and the fact that her political tenure was quickly squashed in the 2021 coup. As an example, If it came out tomorrow that Mother Teresa  4 had been running a drug smuggling ring since she was 20, we wouldn't move her to Criminals even though that would be what people would associate her with going forward. Her VA4-worthiness came from her charity work and activism. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:05, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The categorization has actually been an issue already on V5 where several African (mostly anti-colonial) leaders were listed under revolutionaries and activists, and there was recently a vote in favour of moving them from there to politicians, so this is consistent with that. Even ignoring her term as State Councillor, she can still be considered a politician as leader of the NLD. Iostn (talk) 20:46, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion

Add History of Argentina  5[edit]

Argentina  3 is VA3, and it has been quite important to the History of South America  3. Arguably more important than History of Peru  4 since Peru  4 is only VA4, but the Inca Empire  3 lets that article make it through, although an argument could be made for a swap with History of the Incas  5, which is not even listed at VA5.

Support
  1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:27, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Vileplume (talk) 20:38, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support --Thi (talk) 19:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Shopping  5[edit]

A daily activity for people in capitalist societies (read: most of the world).

Support
  1. As nominator. feminist🚰 (talk) 16:13, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. The inverse concept Sales  4 is already level 4. Even if there were an article covering both sides of purchase transactions, that wouldn't address the browsing that separates shopping from purchasing. (Browsing is currently rated Start-class.) (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 21:18, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:23, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:31, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Support shopping has been around for a long time and a significant fraction of the world population does it. Lorax (talk) 02:25, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Brassica oleracea  5[edit]

This single species has given rise to Kale  4, Cabbage  4, Broccoli  4, Kohlrabi  4, Collard (plant)  4, Gai lan  5, Savoy cabbage  5, and Brussels sprout  5 as long as less vital varieties which makes me think this should be VA4.

Support
  1. as nom 115.188.119.62 (talk) 19:03, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. move Brassicaceae  5 instead, to include mustard, etc. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 21:35, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

I have a related proposal to promote Brassicaceae to V4 by replacing a more obscure family. While B. oleracea is arguably the most important member, there are plenty of other important & vital species (Notably Horseradish  4, Arabidopsis thaliana  4, Radish  4, Rapeseed  4, Rutabaga  4, Eruca vesicaria  4, and Turnip  4) in the family, so I think it's a stronger candidate. -- Marchantiophyta (talk) 23:35, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Ethiopian Empire  5[edit]

A sovereign state whose existence stretched from the Crusades to the Cold War. Its kingdom was based on a blend of indigenous traditions, an ancient form of Christianity, and governance by the Solomonic Dynasty, which through the centuries included leaders such as Amda Seyon I  4, Zara Yaqob  4, Tewodros II  4, Yohannes IV  4, Menelik II  4 and Haile Selassie  4. A cornerstone for African history. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 13:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Alberta  4[edit]

We always try to counter U.S. bias, but rarely Canadian bias. We have one V4 American city for every 12.6m inhabitants, yet one Canadian city for every 7.8m inhabitants. At V5, it’s one US city for every 2.37m inhabitants and one Canadian city for every 1.86m inhabitants. We’ve been removing many contemporary U.S. politicians since late 2023, and now it’s horrendously underrepresented in that area compared to other Anglophone countries. In country subdivisions, we list 8 U.S. states, 4 regions (and I’d consider swapping New England for the Northeast), and Silicon Valley. Then we have four Canadian provinces, and this one is the safest choice for removal. Alberta is far less vital than Ohio  5, Kantō region  5, São Paulo (state)  5, etc imho. How is Krasnodar Krai not even V5? Vileplume (talk) 22:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 22:10, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Swap with Ohio  5 or remove. feminist🩸 (talk) 01:58, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Reasonable swap if we’re only listing one of Ohio’s three major cities - all comparable in population. I’m pretty sure Cincinnati was formerly V4, and a swap between Cleveland and Columbus was proposed relatively recently, but had no support other than nom. Vileplume (talk) 02:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
  1. How about a swap with Canadian Prairies? The prairies cover a larger geographic area than all but approximately a dozen countries on earth. They're located in a relatively populous anglophone country and are of vital economic importance due to their abundant natural/agricultural resources. Additionally, they (and Alberta in particular) hold far more electoral sway than Ohio does. IRN-Dumas (talk) 17:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The swap was proposed recently, and the Prairies have a combined population of only 7.4 million, comparable to only Arizona, the fourteenth most populous state. Not more important than many U.S. regions we don't list. Economically, the region's GDP of $537 billion is comparable to 15th placer Tennessee. Ohio, on the other hand, has a population of 11.8 million and a GDP of $881 billion. Vileplume (talk) 18:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion

@J947: Would you still support a swap with Edmonton today? I would strongly oppose; it’s only comparable to Oklahoma City and Louisville. Vileplume (talk) 01:50, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Swap Mac operating systems for Mac (computer)[edit]

Proposing for similar reasons in my proposal for iPhone and iOS above. Interstellarity (talk) 23:58, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Interstellarity (talk) 23:58, 19 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. per nom, noting also Operating system  4 covers the broad concept of MacOS. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 20:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discussion

Vital articles rules for other levels besides level 5[edit]

We had a lot of discussion on the level 5 talk pages regarding changes to the rules of proposals, but very little discussion on the other levels. I would like to point out some things I have found compared to other levels. Levels 1-4 state that discussions run for 15 days before being closed while level 5 says 14 days. I think we should enjoy consistency with all the levels. Should there be a minimum number of participants before closing? Maybe add a minimum discussion open time after last comment. Comment here. Interstellarity (talk) 00:43, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Imo there's no need to implement changes for the sake of consistency. Level 5 discussions run for a shorter period of time because there are many more articles to deal with at that level and thus a shorter discussion time would accelerate the process. feminist🩸 (talk) 12:59, 25 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Landline[edit]

The opposite of Mobile phone. Has historical significance though not as common as it used to be. Interstellarity (talk) 23:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Interstellarity (talk) 23:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Telephone  3 and Mobile phone  3 are both VA3, and this used to be very important as the main type of phone before mobile phones, so it makes sense at VA4. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:21, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. I would prefer to see History of the telephone  5 elevated to Level/4. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 08:03, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discussion

Move Google, YouTube, Facebook, and Wikipedia to Technology[edit]

Seems to be the right place for them. They are there at level 5. Interstellarity (talk) 16:20, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Katowice  5[edit]

Primary city of one of the largest agglomerations in the European Union. Vileplume (talk) 01:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 01:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
  1. Disclaimer: it is my hometown and I'd like to support :) But I am also not convinced this is a V4 city, and I think vital lists have too many geographical locations... sigh. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:33, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion

Add Scam  5 to Crime[edit]

Scams involve over a trillion dollars each year, and are here to stay.

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:49, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose don't think it stands out compared to other types of fraud at this level. Gizza (talk) 23:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Add Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact  5[edit]

84 iwikis. A piviotal event in the history of Eastern Europe and one of the causes of WWII. Suggested as possiibly V4 by Kammerer55 recently in a V5 discussion. I concur. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:30, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. In the past junior high school world history textbooks in Taiwan mentioned this pact.--RekishiEJ (talk) 02:31, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Cross-country skiing  4[edit]

We have 5 skiing articles at his level, and this does not seem specific enough. Only a modest fraction of the world's population has access to snow-covered landscapes. 6 interwikis.

Support
  1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Over 1% of the Everyday Life quota? No, this kind of stuff is not vital at V4. Vileplume (talk) 22:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 01:45, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap Minas Gerais  4 with São Paulo (state)  5[edit]

SP was unfairly removed for being “redundant” to the city, which is V3 (São Paulo  3). SP has a higher population than any U.S. state by over 3 million, and if anything, MG is more redundant to Belo Horizonte  4. Vileplume (talk) 22:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 22:47, 2 March 2024 (UTC) [reply]
    Changing my vote to support addition, oppose removal per TBR. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:51, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. feminist🩸 (talk) 10:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support adittion. The Blue Rider 11:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose removal. No need to remove an important state demographic/economic-wise, there's room for both. The Blue Rider 11:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discussion

Add History of Bangladesh  5 and History of the Democratic Republic of the Congo  5[edit]

Histories of two high population non-Western countries that would help reduce sysbias. Vileplume (talk) 23:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 23:09, 2 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Weak support Bangladesh. See my rationale in the Oppose section. feminist🩸 (talk) 06:07, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Per nom. Interstellarity (talk) 10:58, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose DRC. Both countries are relatively recent social constructs (DRC 1960; Bangladesh 1971). While Bangladesh is perhaps a middle power with significant exports of clothing, the DRC has little influence internationally. feminist🩸 (talk) 05:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discussion
  1. Any suggestions for compensating removals? (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 05:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Looking back at this, something like History of Morocco  4 is more vital than that of the DRC. Not sure if Morocco makes V3, though. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:39, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Swap Diplomatics  4 with History of spaceflight  5[edit]

Diplomatics  4 (in Auxiliary historical sciences) is somewhat obscure. History of spaceflight  5 (in History of transport) is of considerable interest in the 20th and 21st century. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 05:16, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. As nom. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 05:16, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support --Thi (talk) 09:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:32, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Diplomatics is vital in historiography, yet history of spaceflight is a mere sub-article.--RekishiEJ (talk) 05:31, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discuss

Add History of South Korea  5[edit]

The largest country by GDP (#13 in the world) for which we do not list its history at V4. For reference, the next largest which we don't list is Switzerland (#20), which has a low population.

Support
  1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 06:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. South Korea  3 being level 3 (for good reasons), the strong links between South Korea and the English Wikipedia readership and the strong effects aspects of the history of South Korea have had on geo-politics all provide motivation for this. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 07:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Per vileplume, South Korea is a recent state; the Korean Peninsula has been unified for most of its history. The Blue Rider 17:23, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Add Stretching  5 to Health and fitness[edit]

Form of physical exercise done by humans and other animals.

Support
  1. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12:42, 7 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Run-DMC  5 and Kanye West  5 (potential swap with Joan Baez  4 and Dolly Parton  4/Buddy Holly  4)[edit]

We got to have more rappers than just Tupac Shakur. Hip-hop just celebrated its 50th anniversary last year, and it’s one of the biggest genres in the world right now. It is certainly more popular than country or (European) folk, which we decided for each genre to list three of its musicians on here (four if you count Bob Dylan and to a much lesser extent Taylor Swift). I think we need at least two more hip-hop musicians on here.

Run-DMC is probably the easiest group we can promote. They are frequently called “the Beatles of hip-hop”, and for good reason. Besides being the first rappers to have their videos played on MTV and be featured on the cover of Rolling Stone, they are also the first hip-hop act to go gold, platinum, and multi-platinum. Not only that, they are arguably single-handily responsible for transforming hip-hop from old-school to new-school, with not just their music (rejecting the disco-driven party anthems in favor of hard-edge rhymes and drum machine-heavy beats) but even with the way they dress. (Before, rappers used to wear dramatic, flashy outfits when performing. Run-DMC eschewed that with, well, regular street clothes, including most famously Adidas shoes.)

Now, I would prefer if we just add these guys, but I understand if we need to swap someone out in order to include them. Baez is probably the least vital person in country and folk. For one, we have her former boyfriend, Bob Dylan. I know he’s listed under rock, but unlike Swift who has abandoned country completely, Dylan’s music by in large still has some folk elements to it. More importantly however, she is just largely not known as a songwriter. For folk musicians, especially contemporary ones, singing your own compositions is pretty big deal, and while she has written her own material, they are not on par with those of Woody Guthrie and Joni Mitchell.

I will admit that it took me quite a while to come up with another person to promote to Level 4. I ultimately decided to nominate Ye, but if someone thinks that there’s a better person to promote, feel free to speak up. West is usually held to be one of the hip hop musicians of all time. Maybe not as a rapper, but definitely as a producer. Six of his albums are on the latest version of Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Albums of All Time. Him beating 50 Cent on the album charts with his third album is usually held to bring end of gangsta rap-era of hip hop.

Again, I understand if we need to swap someone before we include him. Again, I don’t think country and folk needs that many people, and after Baez, Dolly Parton is probably the least vital. However, I am open to swapping West with Buddy Holly. We got plenty of rockers, and while his death is tragic, I don’t think his music or status as an icon is as revolutionary or as big as Nirvana.

Support
  1. As nom. Swap with Joan Baez and Dolly Parton respectively if necessary. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:44, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support Add Run DMC. I was an occaisional college radio station DJ/contributor in these days. They are the group that commercialized rap with their first three albums that went gold, platinum and multiplatinum. Those three albums paved the way for "Licensed to Ill" and then the floodgates for Rap music.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:08, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support addition of Run-DMC with no other changes. Baez, Parton and Holly each independently warrant level 4. (— 𝐬𝐝𝐒𝐝𝐬 — - talk) 21:29, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support additions and removal of Joan Baez. Hip-hop has been the world's most popular music genre for over a decade, while Baez has become a bit of a cultural totem, I'm afraid. An enduring figure, but her actual music (songs, albums) is rarely celebrated compared to other V4 pop artists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

The best selling hip hop artist is Eminem  5, who also ranks higher than Ye in the Billboard and Vibe's 50 Greatest Rappers of All Time. I think he is ahead of Ye. Run DMC is significant for different reasons though as early pioneers and it's harder to compare them with contemporary rappers. Gizza (talk) 23:56, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Myanmar conflict  5[edit]

It is the longest military conflict in the world, and its effects are felt in Southeast Asia.

Support
  1. As nom --Hoben7599 (talk) 09:41, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Authoritarianism  5[edit]

Surprised this is not listed. We list Totalitarianism, but not this article since this is the opposite of Democracy. Interstellarity (talk) 00:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Interstellarity (talk) 00:40, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support --Thi (talk) 13:21, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. --RekishiEJ (talk) 11:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Add Second Industrial Revolution  5[edit]

We list the Industrial Revolution and Information Age which is the Third Industrial Revolution, but not this article. Interstellarity (talk) 13:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Interstellarity (talk) 13:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:52, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discussion

Add History of the Catholic Church  5[edit]

As the branch of Christianity with the most followers, it makes sense to include this. Interstellarity (talk) 13:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Interstellarity (talk) 13:45, 23 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Add Personal computer and maybe Mobile device[edit]

This is the most common computer in our daily lives. I am conisdering adding Mobile device  5 since it covers things like tablets. Personal computer covers things like Laptop  5 and Desktop computer  5. Interstellarity (talk) 12:38, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Interstellarity (talk) 12:38, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support pc, oppose md. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:20, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Add both.--RekishiEJ (talk) 12:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Both-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:53, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss
  • Note, mobile device is one support vote away from passing at the time of this comment. starship.paint (RUN) 08:18, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add LGBT  5[edit]

This was noted as a possible addition to VA4 when I proposed LGBT history  5 at VA5 (because LGBT history in the United States  5 was already listed but not that.. go figure), but since then I also noticed that BDSM  4 was VA4 but not LGBT, which is much more socially significant as the general umbrella term for minority sexual orientations or gender identity. We do already list Homosexuality  4, Bisexuality  4 and others here but I don't think this is redundant due to its commonality and widespread usage in social discourse, and as a societally constructed grouping.

Support
  1. As nom Iostn (talk) 16:26, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Clarification that early modern period ends in 1815[edit]

There is a discussion about this topic at VA5 pbp 22:17, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Friedrich List[edit]

Because he influenced Sergei Witte, the Young Turks (cf. Confiscation and Destruction: The Young Turk Seizure of Armenian Property), Deng Xiaoping's post-Mao policies and recent policies in India, he was no doubt a vital economic nationalist.

Support
  1. As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 12:50, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. His ideas were extremely influential in the developmental and industrial policies of Germany, South Korea, and Japan as well. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:50, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. The father of the Historical school of economics. The Blue Rider 14:47, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Brook Taylor  5[edit]

He was one of the most influential mathematicians of the 18th century, and made significant contributions to the development of Calculus  3. He developed Taylor's theorem  5 (one of the central elementary tools in mathematical analysis) and Taylor series  4 (very important in calculus).

Support
  1. As nom. EleniXDD※Talk 09:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion

Add Sergei Witte[edit]

Since this person was vital in the industrialization of the Russian Empire, he definitely should be added.

Support
  1. As nom.--RekishiEJ (talk) 15:13, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Wikipedia[edit]

Not doing this to offend our community, but Wikipedia isn't that important compared to Twitter or Instagram which are both not listed. Considering that Wikimedia Foundation failed at level 5, it would make the most sense to demote this article to level 5. Interstellarity (talk) 12:13, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Interstellarity (talk) 12:13, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Obviously, it is not easy to talk about this neutrally but I do think Wikipedia is VA4-worthy. Sure, Instagram and Twitter may be used more but not by much. But I don't think Wikipedia is just listed here because it's a well-known and frequently-visited website. It's also a technical feat. It's the first time in history we have been able to create a fairly accurate, fairly complete repository of the world's knowledge. I think this novelty makes it VA4-worthy and will ensure it stands the test of time as opposed to Twitter or Instagram. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:45, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Much influence in modern information dissemination. Has all but supplanted traditional encyclopedias like the Encyclopædia Britannica  4.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 08:34, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. It's ok at this leval. --Thi (talk) 21:53, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Weak oppose, although I would weakly support the addition of Twitter, which was swapped with Text messaging  4 in early 2015. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 16:09, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
  1. I agree that Wikipedia is not that far removed from Twitter, but Laukku does present a good point, in that Britannica is also VA4 so it makes sense for Wikipedia to be also listed as the same level. I'm not convinced on Instagram, but I do think Twitter may be worth adding due to its influence on dissemination of news, informaion, and on discourse, if we keep Wikipedia here. Iostn (talk) 21:36, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion

Add Price to Business and economics[edit]

Key economic concept that we interact with very commonly (just promoted to V5). 75 interwikis. starship.paint (RUN) 01:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 01:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Add Twitter[edit]

There seems to be some support for this addition, and it makes sense since it is one of the most popular social media platforms alongside Facebook and Instagram. Interstellarity (talk) 12:54, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Interstellarity (talk) 12:54, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Weakly. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:52, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose Just another platform in systematic decline. --Thi (talk) 13:45, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Per above, Elon Musk has changed Twitter and not for the better. starship.paint (RUN) 04:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discussion

Add Toddler[edit]

Important state of life between Infancy and Childhood. Interstellarity (talk) 11:21, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. Interstellarity (talk) 11:21, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Too niche, only encompasses 2 years. The Blue Rider 13:24, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discussion

Add Crimes against humanity  5[edit]

Fundamental concept of international law alongside War crime  4. 70 interwikis and rated High-Importance by a lot of WikiProjects.

Support
  1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:22, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discuss

Move Clara Schumann to pianists[edit]

I know that the classical music scene has historically been very bad at recognizing music composed by non-white men, and there has been a growing number of people performing her music, but I feel like her vitality still heavily stems from her being one of the leading pianists in the Romantic era. Unlike Sergei Rachmaninoff  4, who like her also mostly gave up on composing and spent the rest of his life being a performer, none of her works are listed as vital. Compare that to Leonard Bernstein  4, who despite giving us West Side Story  4 is rightfully listed under conductors.

Support
  1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:54, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support --Thi (talk) 08:18, 27 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 02:53, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:48, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Swap British Columbia  4 with Ohio  5[edit]

Canada is overrepresented in the country subdivision section for a county of 40 million. Ontario and Quebec are obviously vital, but the other two have insufficient populations and meh economies for V4. I also proposed the removal of Alberta above.

Ohio is a leading U.S. state historically, demographically, and economically. We list the top six in the latter two, and Ohio ranks seventh. Interwikis are 137-194, daily views are 3042-4099. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:20, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:20, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Neutral
Discussion

Add Bilbao  5[edit]

Spain looks a bit underrepresented with only five cities compared to Poland and Ukraine getting six each. Bilbao has a metro area of over a million, more than 50% larger than Zaragoza  4 and the largest city in Northern Spain, and particularly the Basque Country (autonomous community)  4. I'd also add Lille  5, but France is already well-represented. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support --Thi (talk) 08:16, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Bilbao is not a level 4 city, would rather add the historical Salamanca  5. The Blue Rider 14:46, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If Bilbao is not V4-worthy, neither is Salamanca. Bilbao has 121 interwikis compared to Salamanca's 100 and over triple Salamanca's pageviews. Salamanca is also much smaller than the other European cities excluding Syracuse, Sicily  4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 15:19, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Not sure why people love to use these metrics so much; Salamanca might not be a big city population wise but it has a strong historical, cultural and theoligical influence, contrary with Bilbao. The Blue Rider 15:35, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral
Discussion

Add Music genre  5[edit]

Remains an inescapable concept in the way we talk about music.

Support
  1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 01:57, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Flatbread  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, and VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This is the only specific type of Bread  3 listed at V4 and it is not apparent to me why this is that vital. starship.paint (RUN) 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12 May 2024 (UTC)
  2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:15, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:42, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Bandy  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe. starship.paint (RUN) 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 12 May 2024 (UTC)
  2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 08:16, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose Bandy is the second most played winter team sport after ice hockey. If we can list 8 tennis players and some figure skaters I think Bandy should be in.  Carlwev  11:23, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Carlwev: - by all means, do nominate to remove some tennis players or figure skaters if they are not vital enough for you. starship.paint (RUN) 13:14, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Remove Basque pelota  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:41, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Biathlon  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Bowls  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 10:13, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:42, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose Not as popular as football but not obscure, played for over 800 years and still played. There are many professional and amateur grounds, I've seen it played locally and on national TV.  Carlwev  12:48, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Carom billiards  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe. We already list Cue sports  4, Snooker  4 and Pool (cue sports)  4, 3 cue sports articles are more than enough at VA4. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:40, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Croquet  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose  Carlwev  13:31, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Remove Orienteering  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Everyday life is at 23 articles over quota. This is a niche sport more suitable for V5, I believe. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:21, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose  Carlwev  12:49, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose --Thi (talk) 13:51, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Remove Macramé  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota. This topic on a textile technique does not appear important enough at this level. The article is sparse. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:40, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Jute  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota. This topic on a textile does not appear important enough at this level. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support

  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Agronomy  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota. This topic is on the science of Agriculture  2, so there should be considerable overlap with that. The Agronomy article is sparse, and so is agricultural science. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Extensive farming  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota. This is a sparse article that does not appear important enough at this level. Compare with Intensive farming  4. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 13:48, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Itaipu Dam  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota. This is the third largest hydroelectric dam in the world, which produces the second most hydroelectric energy, but it has been eclipsed in both regards by the Three Gorges Dam  4. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 13:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Hoover Dam  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This was big in its heyday in the 1930s, but seems to have been eclipsed in all regards today. Not sure if it would be listed if it was not American. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Fine-art photography  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. It is not apparent, to me at least, what is so important about this genre of photography. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:25, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Oppose Important form of art. --Thi (talk) 12:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Discuss

Remove Dialysis (chemistry)  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Technology is at 44 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. The addition of this dialysis article could have been a mistake, perhaps the intended target was Kidney dialysis. Either way this should be removed. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Journal des sçavans  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Society and social sciences is at 27 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This is the earliest known scientific journal, but a minor one, V5 is appropriate, not V4. Compare to Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society  4, the second earliest known scientific journal. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:39, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support The work doesn't hit me as hugely significant other than being first scientific journal, whatever that is, the author is not hugely known, signifant theories like the speed of light, are already listed separately and are significant in both science and public mind independent of this work.  Carlwev  13:42, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Operational level of war  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Society and social sciences is at 27 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This is a sparse article that I believe can be covered by Military tactics  4, Military strategy  4, and War  2. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:39, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support agree with nom's comments.  Carlwev  13:44, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Biological anthropology  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Society and social sciences is at 27 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This is a sparse article on a subset of Anthropology  3. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Oedipus complex  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Society and social sciences is at 27 articles over quota, so we've got to take action. This is a niche article more suitable for V5, I believe. Compare it to the 21 other articles in the same section link. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:38, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Stratigraphic unit  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Physical sciences is at 1 article over quota. This is a sparse article on rocks that seems more suitable for V5. We already list Stratigraphy  4. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Scottish Highlands  4[edit]

VA4 is at 21 articles over quota, VA4 Geography is at 1 article over quota. As this article states, this is a sparsely populated area. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. NRW and Lombardy are better suited for V4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:38, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Move Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab  4 to the Sunni section[edit]

Setting aside on whether we should place the Sufis in their own separate section, why is he not under the Sunni section? Wahhabism is very strictly a Sunni thing.

Support
  1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:03, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Move George Gershwin  4 to 20th century modern[edit]

In the Level 5 people pages, George Gershwin is under the Western art music section. And yeah, I think that's a more suitable place for him. I think the general consensus regarding him is that he is a classical composer who has a lot of jazz elements in his work.

Support
  1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:42, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 12:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss
  • FYI, Scott Joplin  4 is also in the Western art music section in the Level 5 pages; however, there is a specific subsection for ragtime composers. For now, I am fine with him being placed under jazz, but I would happily support anyone who wants to place him elsewhere. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:42, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Liqueur  4, NOT Liquor  4[edit]

With a result of 7-4, Liqueur (not Liquor) was the article closest to being removed out of the multi-removal nomination of alcoholic beverages. Two opposers said that it would be better to open separate discussions. So here it is. The article is sparse and I believe this is niche for V4. We have 14 alcoholic drink articles at V4, time to cut it down. We're over quota by 21 articles. starship.paint (RUN) 13:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:43, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support --Thi (talk) 10:01, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Random article buttons[edit]

I wanted to let you all know that I made some modifications to the random article buttons. Firstly, I have changed them so that they include the levels above it like all level 4 articles include levels 1, 2, and 3 and added random articles to each category so you could do a random level 4 people article. I think in this way, we can easily find articles that could be added and that do not belong on the level easily. Check it out for yourself. Please let me know what you like about it and what can be improved. I always welcome constructive feedback. Interstellarity (talk) 21:13, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What makes a US President vital?[edit]

I feel like we list a bunch of US presidents at this level. I’m sure that is not surprising as the US has been a dominant world power for decades. Some presidents are obviously vital like Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Both Roosevelts, Eisenhower, and Reagan as their legacies seemed to have been settled at this point. We also list three consecutive recent presidents, Bush, Obama, and Trump so I don’t know if recentism is an issue here. I know scholarly rankings don’t give a complete answer as to what makes a president vital as Trump, Nixon, Bush, and Jackson are listed that had far from stellar terms as president. I would like to gather input from other editors as to what makes a president vital. Interstellarity (talk) 00:21, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Trump was America's The Emperor's New Clothes moment, notable for how terrible he was. Obama represented the rise of African Americans through society. Bush responded to 9/11 with two wars. starship.paint (RUN) 03:39, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Starship.paint: Can you explain the analogy of Trump as America's The Emperor's New Clothes moment? I understand the significance of Obama and Bush, but I was hoping that you could delve deeper into the meaning of this phrase. Interstellarity (talk) 13:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Interstellarity: - while some American presidents have done terrible things, I believe they retained some semblance of dignity. Trump had none of that. That such a person became president (and even continues to lead a major political party) reflects on the American electorate as well. Simply put, Trump turned America into a laughingstock. He represents the decay of America. Apologies for the bluntness. starship.paint (RUN) 13:34, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Starship.paint: No worries, I understand now. He represented a turning point in America. He is no Jimmy Carter, who wasn’t a good president, but an exceptional human being. Trump was one who defied traditional norms. Although he remains popular with many in America despite his flaws, he is one of those people who was unpopular with a majority of Americans since he was a terrible president according to historians and possibly a terrible human being. I hope I provided a good analysis on him which probably represents why he is vital. Interstellarity (talk) 14:07, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @Interstellarity: - that's adequate reasoning. More points are the cult of personality, the overwhelming amount of untruths, and despite the lack of much achievements, the power to cause this. starship.paint (RUN) 14:22, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add Barbarian[edit]

Recently added at VA5, worth discussion here I reckon.

Support
  1. Support as nom. J947 ‡ edits 02:50, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discussion
  • @J947: - can you propose to remove something? We are already over quota. I firmly believe that nominators and supporters should do the work to keep us within the quota, instead of having other editors have to put in the effort to find more articles to remove. starship.paint (RUN) 07:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Valmiki  4[edit]

Why isn't he under writers? SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:34, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • @SailorGardevoir: - just go ahead and shift him. starship.paint (RUN) 07:46, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Are you sure? I just want to know what's the rationale of him being under Hindu figures and not writers. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:20, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    @SailorGardevoir: the first author in all history to bring himself into his own composition. starship.paint (RUN) 12:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Remove Automotive engineering  4[edit]

Much fewer interwikis than all the other engineering articles listed there (this has 20, the second lowest has 37, the highest has 101). We're over quota in total V4 and V4 Technology. starship.paint (RUN) 08:28, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:28, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss

Remove Preadolescence  4[edit]

Covered already by Child  3, Boy  4 and Girl  4. We're over quota in total V4 and V4 Everyday life. starship.paint (RUN) 08:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support
  1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:34, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 09:58, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
Discuss
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