User talk:Rich Farmbrough/Archive/2007 January

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ISBNs & 13 digits

Hi, I see your bot has been making lots of ISBN fixes in pages in my watch list - thanks. Will you be able to automatically change them to the 13 digit versions or do I need to start going through & doing them manually? — Rod ^talk 21:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Rod, yes in principle it can do it. I'm only 90% sure it's a good idea. If you have some articles suitable for testing the principle it would be a good pace to start. Rich Farmbrough, 21:47 21 December 2006 (GMT).

Why might it not be a good idea - presumably all the library catalogues , booksellers etc will be migrating to the 13 digit version?— Rod ^talk 08:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Well the start date was 1/1/2005 and an awful lot don't seem to have done it yet, with 9 days to go. We could do with a proper survey. I quote myself...

It seems most European libraries are not accepting 13 digits yet. Compare:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Booksources&isbn=0385504209
• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Booksources&isbn=978-0-385-50420-1

Looking at the Karlsruhe the first returns many hists, the second hardly any

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Booksources&isbn=9780385504201

does a little better. Rich Farmbrough, 11:31 18 December 2006 (GMT).

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 09:19 22 December 2006 (GMT).

OK well if none of the other sources are actually implementing it we could probably sensibly leave it for a while - I only asked because I've just sent a new document to the British Library & it had to have the 13 digit ISBN included.— Rod ^talk 10:02, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's a good sign anyway. I did have a scheme that would have swapped over at midnight - see {{auto isbn}}. Rich Farmbrough, 10:14 22 December 2006 (GMT).

I see you've done one (Robert Dunning) on Charterhouse, Somerset but it doesn't work when you click on the ISBN & go to amazon.co.uk (which I tend to use), for other test on pages I've done many of the refs on you could try Chew Valley or Chew Valley Lake, which are both FA or Chew Stoke, Chew Magna, Kennet and Avon Canal and Mendip Hills which are GA status.— Rod ^talk 12:50, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you're right, all the Amazon's fail, Barnes and Noble, Alibris and Abebooks all work. It's very patchy, and many people seem to be waiting to the last minute. (It's also hard to find a good ISBN for testing - anything popular enough to be world-wide seems to be publishe in many languages/fromats.) I've emailed Amazon. It may be possible (but silly in a way) to re-write book sources to coerce 13 digit ISBNs back to 10, if the right parser functions have been introduced. Anyway, I have done a few hundred articles to seed the collective conciousness, I may just let it trickle away (there are 84,000 ISBNy articles). Rich Farmbrough, 13:48 23 December 2006 (GMT).

Having had some time to think about this more, I'm considering using multiple ISBNs. By providing a 10-digit number we can allow easy entry and verification against what is printed in older books. By providing a 13-digit number we support the new standard. Better still, we support books that have both a hardcover and a softcover edition; these have distinct ISBNs. It's a little cumbersome, but maybe it's worth it. --KSmrq^T 12:58, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

On the Chew Valley artcile I've tested "Ekwall, Eilert (1928). English River-Names. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-869119-8" & it fails on both Amazon & Barnes & Noble. The one I had to send to the BL had a different final digit in the 13 digit version as well as the initial 3 added ie 1-86043-399-5 becomes 978-1-86043-399-3 this may be complicating the additions?— Rod ^talk 14:18, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I had heard that a new 13-digit ISBN numbers were being introduced, and it's nice that Amazon now supports this new format, but is it really necessary for us to convert all of our existing references that have 10-digit ISBN numbers to 13-digit codes? None of the books I own have 13-digit ISBN numbers, so I'm in favor of leaving those references the way they are. You don't really expect us to convert all of the 10-digit codes, do you? If so, checking for mistakes is going to become that much more tedious. In my opinion, it would be better to do something else, like simply changing the labels for the old codes from "ISBN" to "ISBN-10" instead. --Jwinius 21:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I hope you have consulted widely about this. Old ISBN contain errors and you risk introducing new ones, severing references to obscure citations, that may remain unnoticed. If your advice from librarians (not singular), reseachers, booksellers, et al condones your approach, I will say no more. Your chastising categorising could do with improvement too. Do you focus on what you like, not what you hate on Wikipaedia? A new user, Fred 14:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

User:SmackBot edits

Hello Rich! Great bot you're running, but I noticed SmackBot making a couple minor errors [1], [2]. See here for a few more. Hope you can figure out what went wrong! Cheers, Dar-Ape 16:32, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, fixed. Rich Farmbrough, 16:36 26 December 2006 (GMT).

Reference

Dear Mr Farmborough, Can you please give an explanation to:

... appropriate MoS. I come down on the plural, while I am against computers making number mistakes in onter contrexts, I prefer the consistancy. I also run ...

if there is one. Should I check my 'References library'? Toodles, Fred 16:44, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

SmackBot edit summaries

I was looking through the edit history of an article, and noticed that there's an error in the edit summary: Replace deprecated tmeplate using AWB. As you can proably see by now, template is spelled wrong in the edit summary. Can this be fixed? --GVOLTT 06:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

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Reference and ISBN

No doubt you are working your way through after your wikibreak, thanks for quick reply. I will sleep on all this, but the end user, the reader, reads the first category of the 'better than start' article as containing wrong information. And it does not. See the LISWA site previously forwarded.

But you are attempting to communicate with editors, I presume, in effect, 'There is a mistake here.' Otherwise you would simply remove it. Please remove cat if you haven't already. George Temple-Poole Fred 15:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Fred, I've fixed the ISBN in George Temple-Poole . Rgds, Rich Farmbrough, 15:00 28 December 2006 (GMT).

Thakur Sher Singh Parmar

I appreciate your intelligent hardwork n sincerity.No one can doubt your intentions , yet I must say you are unnecessarily making edits and unnecessarily making unrequired comments on Thakur Sher Singh Parmar page.Stop it, please. Amita karpe 14:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello, as far as I knoww I havenever commented on Thakur Sher Singh Parmar, although my WP:BOT did date the cleanup tags that were on it. Rich Farmbrough, 14:58 28 December 2006 (GMT).

P.S. I would suggest you choose a username and stick to it. RF.

History of Pakistan

This page has been blocked due to edit war by Indian contributors rewriting Pakistani history from Indian perspective. It has been blocked for too long. I would like to request that this page be unblocked. Siddiqui 17:12, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks.

Siddiqui 18:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

ISBN messes

Could you lend an answer to my question on this talk page Wikipedia_talk:List_of_pages_with_Invalid_ISBNs and/or clarify the reason why we have both a list and an category of invalid ISBNs? I've spent a fair amount of time recently cleaning up some ISBNs, and intend to do more as I'm able. I just don't want to do it 'wrong.' Thanks! Keesiewonder 20:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• Excellent; it is not a trouble for me to remove them once I fix them. Perhaps you can also weigh in on my issue here: Talk:Zeynelabidin_Zinar. I'd like to just replace the ISBN with the OCLC, but would appreciate a second opinion. Thanks! Keesiewonder 21:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

---

Hi, hope you don't mind but I fixed a few of the identified ISBNs by looking them up at the National Library of Australia catalogue, and one at the equivalent Finnish catalogue. Usually it was one digit mistranscribed, or two transposed, that was causing the problem. Orderinchaos78 21:05, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your recent ISBN fixes. Your repaired versions looked OK to me. EdJohnston 22:15, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Tantiusques

Noting you made some minor edits to my Tantiusques article got me thinking about what a largely unnoticed and thankless task those sorts of edits are. Converting to metric, and vice versa, is a task I admit I've usually shirked. Therefore, this is a note to say "thanks". Happy New Year. ◄HouseOfScandal► 21:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

don't take it to heart

Don't take it to heart.I was merely trying to cross check if the mail system works or not by writing to you.I 'm convinced it works ,as I received reply from you.I did not mean it seriously.I had picked up your address randomly, as it didn't look indian.Rest assured I am sticking to my chosen identity. Amita karpe 13:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

PGNx Media

Rich Farmbrough,

Please take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2006_December_30#.5B.5BPGNx_Media.5D.5D

A few months ago, you voted to keep the article because the website had established itself as a notable reviews outlet. If you could please reiterate this vote in the new process, I would be much indebted. Infomanager 21:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Thank you! As I asked the other administrator, if you have any suggestions on how to make clearer the notability or focus of the website, I would be extremely thankful! Infomanager 21:47, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Hi Rich. Just a friendly reminder that canvassing is highly controversial and strongly discouraged on Wikipedia. As such, I would encourage you to be careful when participating in debates to which you have been individually invited. Thanks! --Alan Au 09:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

SmackBot & K'daai

On 16 December SmackBot fixed ISBN formatting on the references in the K'daai article, which was great. But it also added a wikify tag. I would like a little instruction here. What needs to be done to wikify the K'daai article? Or is it just a vagary of SmackBot? --Bejnar 19:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

It is a feature of WP:AWB to tag articles with wikify or uncategorised. The wikify tag is based I believe on the number of wiki-links in the article. If it seems inappropriate, by all means remove it. Rich Farmbrough, 20:56 31 December 2006 (GMT).

Unresolvable ISBNs

While I am here, occasionally SmackBot notes a check digit failure in an ISBN. Most of the time, it was my typo, or a leading zero was removed; however occasionally when I check WorldCat for the ISBN it comes back with the same invalid one. My guess is that the original cataloger made the error, and everyone since has copied it. Should I leave the bad ISBNs or should I delete them? --Bejnar 19:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Worth chatting with other ISBN hunters (User:EdJohnston comes to mind), I don't have a very strong feeling one way or the other. If you leave it, I would suggest leaving the template, and possibly putting in an HTML comment.

Rich Farmbrough, 20:56 31 December 2006 (GMT).

Cat:Invalid

Just finished the "C's". Going to take a bit of a breather. Its lonely at the bottom of the pitEkotkie 23:06, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Well done! Rich Farmbrough, 23:37 31 December 2006 (GMT).

Ah ... it's not too, too lonely! I am glad the Cs that you're through with are still tagged, though. I found one that had given you difficulty. Carl Schuch. I have some Os that I'm working on, and will then pass through these Cs. We'll get it done! Keesiewonder 00:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Only 2514 left.... Rich Farmbrough, 00:36 1 January 2007 (GMT).

"Cannot Locate"

I recognize I am a relative newcomer to WP and to fixing ISBNs. (i.e. please don't bite the newcomers; I'll try to not bite the elders.) However, I have to say I do not particularly like the tendency to insert "cannot locate" after ISBNs that are tagged as being in error. Please see Anatoly Zverev for an example. I trust there is a way to insert this text so it does not appear as part of the article for the basic reader (as opposed to the ISBN hunters/fixers); I think I've already done this myself sometime in the last several weeks. Plus, for those that truly, truly truly cannot be found with a valid ISBN, there are at least three other numbers that can be used and linked to (OCLC, LCCN, ASIN). Please note more times than not, I am finding I am able to find a valid ISBN, though: see this for an example.

I am content that the "cannot locate" items appear to remain tagged as having an invalid ISBN, and am of the type that will come along and relatively quietly really clean them up rather than leave them 97% finished. I certainly am not as fast as other folks at fixing these, so maybe such a work flow, even with the unprofessional looking (to me, anyway) "cannot locate" is perfectly fine. Just thought I'd share my observation on this ... Thanks for your time. And please move this elsewhere if you find it appropriate. Kind Regards, Keesiewonder 13:03, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Please see my talk page as I've asked an additional thing there ... Keesiewonder 13:23, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Happy New Year to you too! :-) ... Just one more thing: what is "these" in "these are all cut and paste from articles?" Keesiewonder 13:46, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok; I think I'm on the same page as you now. I must have asked my original question in a thread from another day poorly. I was wondering whether it would be a good idea to store the invalid and/or canceled ISBNs on article talk pages, especially when changing a SmackBot identified ISBN in error to an OCLC. I like the idea of keeping the "bad" ISBN around, but do not want it to get flagged by SmackBot if I store it on an article's talk page for safe keeping. It sounds like you are saying that article talk pages are not processed, so I could optionally store said "bad" ISBNs there w/o triggering SmackBot. I was not (yet) (intentionally) asking about ISBNs flagged on user talk pages ... but, when I am perplexed by this, I will hopefully remember what you've told me today. Regards, Keesiewonder 14:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Template talk:New

Plz see reply. Template talk:New. Cheers. frummer 21:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Cannot Find Tags

I have just finished removing all (cannot find) tags from CAT:INVALID pages, A,B,C,D, and that small part of E that I have just started working on. Those were the only ones I worked on. Any use of a tag that I used was to note the absence of a correct ISBN was only intended to flag this error to a user who was looking for a particular reference and might attempt to use one that was in error. It was not to cause heartburn as to the quality of the pages product or the author of the page. I seriously doubt that a typical user will go into edit mode to verify the accuracy of an ISBN, thus, I elevated the comment to the visible area for all to see. This was intended to be a short term solution and would allow others to use additional resources to find and correct the defective ISBN. I am currently using 6 different tools to search out ISBN's. In all honesty I feel the best answer, at this juncture is to just eliminate the errant ISBN and press on. There are over 2000 ISBN that need to be resolved. Let the user seek out his/her own ISBN, if one is even needed. I would rather give the readership an accurate title and author's name then to give them a bogus ISBN.Ekotkie 06:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Sounds fine ... I feel we're all essentially saying the same thing albeit in slightly different ways. Keesiewonder 11:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I won't lose sleep over removal of incorrect ISBNs, or their being left in the "do later" pile. Rich Farmbrough, 12:06 3 January 2007 (GMT).

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ASIN template and the A-list

Thanks for the ASIN template. I don't really like ASINs either, and can stop using them if you wish. I like to have it available as a compromise if others dislike removal of a 'bad' ISBN. I have feelers out regarding Argentine rock on the outstanding A list since I was not able to quickly solve it myself. Regards, Keesiewonder 13:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Rich! This is the first I've heard of an ASIN template, but since it seems to have been created, would you consider adding a comment about it over on Category talk:Articles with invalid ISBNs? It could help out with difficult books which have no known valid ISBN but can be found in Amazon. EdJohnston 23:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ed, I am not sure that ASINs are necessary for books. I have found that for most cases, an OCLC was readily found. Note: User:Shimgray/ASIN So far I have only found one book that I could only find an ASIN for ([3]), and in that case, only a http://amazon.fr link displayed the book, making the {{ASIN}} template useless. However if an ASIN is all that someone has, I'm all for them using the {{ASIN}} template so it helps others find the OCLC.

There are many articles that use ASINs. Via google, I quickly found ASINs are in use on WP for books (Raymond Cattell (Books) and Edith Cavell) and audio/video publications (Christopher Parkening, Julian Bream and Patty Larkin). I have no idea about audio/video identification schemes ..., yet. John Vandenberg 01:06, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikilinking dates

Thanks for your input on this topic. If I'm interpreting you incorrectly at [4], please let me know. I'd rather have the dates all wikilinked if that is current policy since, I assume, doing so would help bring an article just one tiny step closer to FA status. Keesiewonder 10:55, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Admin (again)

Perhaps it's time now for it? or what do you say? _→AzaToth 16:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Info on the ISBN-fixing activity now on my user page

Hello Rich. Take a look at the new version of my user page where I tried to summarize the ISBN-fixing activity. Let me know if I missed out on some useful bit of advice for newcomers. So far, there has not been a real project for this work, but it wouldn't hurt if the effort looked a bit respectable, since our changes are sometimes questioned by people who don't know what it's about or why we're doing it. The 'members' of the project are simply the set of people who have been fixing ISBNs lately, using either the list or the category. Please comment if you can think of anything to add. EdJohnston 23:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Albert Fish

Come back and check the article. I rewrote a lot based on primary sources, and the secondary contemporary reports in the New York Times. Most of the previous article had sensational material from the tabloids of the time, based on speculation, and his own delusional testimony. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 09:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Delinking years

In your recent edit to Little Britain you delinked a number of years. I'm interested in your reasoning here. The Manual of Style indicates that there is no consensus when it comes to the linking of bare years. Is there a reason beyond personal preference that you delinked these? Chovain 02:07, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, actually there is consensus to "make only links useful in context" the spectrum of disagreement is about what constitutes "useful in context", and even here there is general agreement that there are too many linked years. In this article the links to 2001, 2003 and 2006 are of little or no use, even links to 2003 in television would be of limited use, as it does not mention the show, nor really provide a context. Rich Farmbrough, 11:47 7 January 2007 (GMT).

Typos in Chess

Your change of "truely" -> "truly" in Chess was a bad edit. Quotes must retain the original spelling even if anachronistic. 24.177.112.146 07:55, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I realised that, but didn't correct the edit summary. Rich Farmbrough, 10:04 7 January 2007 (GMT).

Queen Elizabeth Elementary School (New Westminster)

Another editor has added the "{{prod}}" template to the article Queen Elizabeth Elementary School (New Westminster), suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but the editor doesn't believe it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and has explained why in the article (see also Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not and Wikipedia:Notability). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia or discuss the relevant issues at its talk page. If you remove the {{prod}} template, the article will not be deleted, but note that it may still be sent to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. --Eastmain 20:31, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Vis-à-vis has also been proposed for deletion. NickelShoe (Talk) 01:42, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

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JS

Nope :-( - My JS still doesn't work correctly either even with Deskana's change undone - perhaps the devs have changed something? thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 11:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:List of pages with Invalid ISBNs: new version planned?

Hello Rich! The List that you generated on 22 Aug 06 is dwindling fast, under the onslaught of the new army of ISBN-fixers. It's down to less than 200 entries, while about 2066 pages are still known to have problems (via the Category). Since the List has become so popular, is there any chance you could generate a new one? I understand it has to be made via an off-line operation that only you know how to do. EdJohnston 23:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ed, there's not much point re-generating it as it stood, because it's checksum problems only. The early version scanned a databse dump for checksum problems to create a list of articles, and then (if you remember) SmackBot simply added a category to the article, the editor then had to guess which ISBN had a checksum problem - or use the list. The current version is run against every aricle with "ISBN" in it, about 84,000 at the last count, and labels the individual problem ISBNs, so the category should be sufficient. The only advantage to the list is that you can spot when an ISBN error is common to a bunch of articles. Perhaps I'll consider createing a list for this purpose when the next database dump is done, sorted by ISBN no. Rich Farmbrough, 23:51 9 January 2007 (GMT).

A list of common mistakes (i.e. only invalid ISBNs having more than one occurrence) grouped by invalid ISBN would be great, as tackling those would have the greatest effect.

As an aside, the reason why I started tackling the list was so that it could be removed, to make it simpler to explain where the army should focus their efforts. The problem with the list is that entries become stale (at the moment about a third of the problems have been fixed already). These stale entries still need to be re-checked, as I've found cases where people remove the tag or remove the invalid ISBN. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jayvdb (talk • contribs) 01:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC).

Trammel points

smackbot is a smart bot. How did he get programmed? --Johnalden 01:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. He is usually using AWB, for these changes he replaces a suprisingly large number of variants of about eight basic templates with a canonical version, plus date parameters based on WP:Magic Words. He also makes some of the changes that are programmed into AWB as "general changes". The way the templates are written means that undated copes of the templates put the articels into categories where they can be easily recognised. Rich Farmbrough, 09:50 10 January 2007 (GMT).

Gmail chat

Oh, you don't have to install the standalone version. If you activate it in your Gmail account, when ever Gmail is open the chat is open without installing the useless standalone version. Sorry, I should have made it clear, let me see if it shows you online. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk • contribs) 16:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC). OK, I understand! I use Gmail as my POP client, since it has the largest capacity and the messages are stored on a server, I dont use a PC based mail reader anymore.

Template:Copyedit

Template:Copyedit now includes a date parameter. Would you mind running SmackBot on articles tagged with {{copyedit}} as well? Thanks so much! Gzkn 05:20, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Not a problem, provided we start with a "lump" in January. Rich Farmbrough, 09:52 10 January 2007 (GMT).

Also, just letting you know that the date parameter works like {{copyedit|date=January 2007}} not {{copyedit|January 2007}}. Gzkn 06:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Good I think date= is much better. Rich Farmbrough, 09:51 10 January 2007 (GMT).

Thanks so much! A date parameter to {{expand}} and {{verify}} would be good as well. I'm not sure how much it would add to {{fact}} though...and I'm not sure how to display the date either...it would be pretty ugly. However, I'm not an administrator, and all three of those templates are fully protected. So, unfortunately, I can't add the date param. Gzkn 01:07, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Albert Fish

Hello, yes Albert Fish got much better, I read about 15 articles in the New York Times plus the crime library. All other web sites cited had exaggerated claims and, made up quotes. He admitted two killings and was a suspect in a few others, but not the hundreds originally cited. I also think his letter and the confession provide the best information. Do you have Gmail yet? The New York Times archive is great, I was just reading Orville Wright's obituary today. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 15:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Did you activate Gmail chat yet? Its very handy for quick communication and to see if other Wikipedians are online. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 15:37, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks like we both spoke too soon about Albert Fish, someone just added lots of material from the sensational book.

Keep an eye on the Fish story for me, a third opinion is the best way to avoid an edit war. I just want to make sure everything is attributed and that the sensation claims that aren't part of trial, or press coverage are attributes to an author in the test.

• Avoid: Fish killed over 100 children.
• Better: Fish told his psychiatrist that he had killed over 100 children.

• Avoid: Fish was the 'Brooklyn Vampire'.
• Better: Detective King believed Fish to be responsible for the killings of several children in New York that were never solved.

I also linked to another serial killer that was sentenced death that had the same MO as Fish, he came up as a suspect in the killings before Fish was caught. Cheers.

If you want to read any of the Fish stories from the NYT let me know, I have them all downloaded already. Just check the bibliography.

--Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 19:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

My RFA

Hey, thanks so much for supporting my recent RFA. A number of editors considered that I wasn't ready for the mop yet and unfortunately the RFA did not succeed (69/26/11). There are a number of areas which I will be working on (including changing my username) in the next few months in order to allay the fears of those who opposed my election to administrator.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank you sincerely for your support over the past week. I've been blown away by the level of interest taken in my RFA and appreciate the time and energy dedicated by all the editors who have contributed to it, support, oppose and neutral alike. I hope to bump into you again soon and look forward to serving you and Wikipedia in any way I can. Cheers! The Rambling Man 19:10, 11 January 2007 (UTC) (the non-admin, formerly known as Budgiekiller)

To receive a support from a WP legend such as yourself makes me proud to be part of the project. Thanks again. The Rambling Man 19:10, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Dated Templates

Can you elaborate in longhand. I am not sure I understand what you said. Otherwise send me to a page somewhere with the appropriate detail. TonyTheTiger 20:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

HoC

Thanks. I was wondering what you were talking about until I realized that that was one of my subpages. I wanted to know the countries of our top editors. How did you come across it? -- Earl Andrew - talk 03:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

A request for assistance

Would you support the concept of moving the Earhart "myths" to a separate page or article? The reason for my suggesting this is that the main article should be an accurate and scholarly work while the speculation and conspiracy theories surrounding the disappearance of Amelia Earhart are interesting, they belong in a unique section. Most researchers, as you know, discount the many theories and speculation that has arisen in the years following her last flight. Go onto the Earhart discussion page and register your vote/comments...and a Happy New Year to you as well. Bzuk 02:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

Winter of 1976-1977

Hey, since you are an admin who visited this page, Winter of 1976-1977, I thought I would ask your advice. I am a relatively newer Wikipedian. Do you think it is time to tag this page with AfD or should we give it more time? It seems to be a topic that not much is available on, and a fairly local perspective as well. Thanks! Fundamentaldan 21:01, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Judgement

Hey Ed K, there is no team leader! Just use your best judgment. EdJohnston 04:51, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I treat folks with admin privileges as "folks in charge" or at the least, experienced "go-to" folks. Besides, I seemed to offend some when I decided to leave my comments visible to all. I truly consider Wiki to be a great "Work in Progress" and nothing that folks should be ashamed of. All reference books have errors, thats why they get revised. I have wondered all along just how many people even noticed the flag note at the bottom of the page indicating a invalid isbn? (ya, I saw tonights note in the Cat section) When you stop and think about it, if a person is sensitive to how something "might look" to others, (A lack of professionalism) what is the the difference in the note at the bottom of the page? All very strange to me. Right now I am using a "three strikes rule" I have three search tools open at the same time. I try title and authors name in each tool. If that fails, it gets the "hidden indicator" that will then await someone else to look for it, especially difficult to locate if its from the referenced section (^). At this rate, we might be done by summer............But thats ok, I have other projects to fiddle with.Ekotkie 05:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ed, I'm not an administrator, but I enjoy the suggestion. See Wikipedia:List_of_administrators to figure out who actually is (e.g. Rich Farmbrough). EdJohnston 05:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Rich, in a recent discussion, I stood corrected in *assuming* that EdJ was an administrator. For what it is worth, I feel like he would probably make a good admin. He certainly seems to have the right stuff for the job. I'd like to recommend that you give consideration in making him one. FWIW. Have a great day.Ekotkie 21:50, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Various

Notes for informtion - not necessarily connected in any way.

1. Email. You can email users using the "email this user" system. However with talk pages, you get the message when you are on WP which I find helpful, for most things. Sensitive stuff can always go by email if needed.

   Oh, I understand and have used this method. Wiki mail is a bit strange as compared to e-mail.

2. Admin. Anyone can propose anyone for administrator, as I have recently done with User:AzaToth - one of our template geniuses. I will ask Ed if he's interested. There's a process which can someitmes be painful for candidates...

   Well, it wasn't a joke. I feel like he has the right disposition to do a great job. And yes, I understand all too well what you mean by the pain in the process.

3. I tend to scan with SmackBot when a data base dump has been completed. This means I can pick likely articles to set SmackBot on, last time 'round it was anything with "ISBN" in it.

   A couple observations about SmackBot. I have been through a bunch of editing and the following may just be flukes but they have stood out:

   1. I have found ISBN errors that SmackBot did not catch. This occurred where ISBN was short and colorwise, was black as opposed to blue when it is correct.
   2. I have found the Invalid template placed in the middle of an existing ISBN that may have been correct had it not intersected in the middle like it did.
   3. I have found ISBN's that were flagged as bad but located by the same manner through various reliable sources. You have read my "3 strikes rule". If I found flagged ISBN through my process, I clipped the template and passed it on, as stated.
   4. I strongly support removing the invalid ISBN data once it has been reviewed by two people. Leave the book.doc name and author but get rid of the ISBN. Maybe create an HTML flag note to leave for a page owner, but press on.

4. People often come across as "grumpy" on WP, sometimes they are, but often it's just terse writing. People like you who are a little more relaxed and polite in style generally help defuse situations when they do arise. Never worry to much about what someone says on WP.

   I have no axe to grind or in need of a feather in my hat. Being retired gives me great latitude in this respect. I can go take a nap or seek out another project needing my attention. I am building some small electronic robots to torment my cat and dog (just kidding) I am a bit intrigued by these software bots used here. I tip my hat to the creators.

Erm that's it for now. Best wishes, Rich Farmbrough, 23:04 12 January 2007 (GMT).

Have a great day. We have an inbound ice storm headed for the next two days. Second one this season. I will batten down the hatches.Ekotkie 01:14, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

ISBN troubles

the bot had some trouble in the article List of Naruto media because of the article editor's format:

• Naruto Vol. 1 ISBN 1-5693-1900-6 - 192 pages, 2003

the bot read past the 10 digit ISBN and into the page numbers. As a programmer myself the bot performance makes sence to me since it needed to consider the possibility of a 13 digit code. I replaced the hyphen with an ndash hoping this with fix the problem. For example:

• Naruto Vol. 1 ISBN 1-5693-1900-6 – 192 pages, 2003

I think everything in the article is fixed now but I didn't verify all the Japaneses ISBNs. Thanks for all your work. --Droll 03:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

AzaToth's RFA

I thought that the convention for new RFAs was to add a "2" or "(2nd)" behind the name, rather than moving the original away from the page. The "2" would certainly help in accessibility. I quote from WP:RFA/N, "To create a second nomination, simply put the number 2 after the nominee's username." – Chacor 00:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah, doubtless. I wanted to use the magic button to be sure the formatting was right, by all means move the pages if you think it necessary. Rich Farmbrough, 09:42 10 January 2007 (GMT).

The first RfA was heavily discussed, so your move did mess up a bunch of archived links (I fixed some at WT:RFA, WP:BN and Signpost). Live and learn, but please don't do that again. Cheers, NoSeptember 21:05, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Franklin, Virginia

You just recently removed some content from citations that I added in the article on Franklin, Virginia. Specifically, you removed the publisher information and replaced it with "Southampton County Historical Society." Is there something i am unfamiliar with that was the reason for this change? I am just a little confused, I checked the book out of the library, got the information from inside the front cover. If I have made a mistake, please let me know and I will gladly try to fix it and prevent it in the future. Thanks again! -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 05:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi, according to Amazon (ASIN B000JF398Q, ASIN B0007395WY , ASIN B000J9Y6L6) it is published by Southampton County Historical Society, Southampton County Historical Society, and Wiliam Byrd Press respectivly. The same goes for Abebooks. I would suspect that Southampton County Historical Society is the publishers and WBP the printers. As for the ISBN, 87-063258 is clearly not one. Possibly, if this was part of a series it may be an ISSN - ISSN 8706-3258. It is also possible that the book was published by two organisations simultaneously. Would you be able to examine the book again? Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 14:06 13 January 2007 (GMT).

Yea, I will go check it out again! Thanks for the information on the topic, it was much appreciated. I will let you know what I find out. Thanks again! -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 16:41, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: AWB versions etc

Hi, Rich. Thanks for yor proposal, I use it immediately: please enable 3.1.0.0 :) MaxSem 16:08, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Did you see

Please let me know if you spot any SmackBot errors (especially of a new type). Rich Farmbrough, 17:54 13 January 2007 (GMT).

the latest note in the Cat:invalid area for the K Row?

Sorry you may have missed my dialog with Chris on the VA. Article. He was going to recheck out that ISBN data at his local library. I suspected that the book was a very limited edition talking to history related matters in that area.Ekotkie 18:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Monobook problem

I posted this at VP, but maybe you will see it faster here. Check this diff. This was the the update ABCD did on January 11 (most likely the day ABCD noticed his monobook was broken, and fixed it). -- ReyBrujo 03:45, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Smackbot

I'm not sure what happened here. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I am... I lost my main PC and had to retpye somr stuff, and got it wrong. Thansk for telling me. Rich Farmbrough, 14:41 14 January 2007 (GMT).

Greetings

Hi. Your bot made a few edits on a page I watchlisted,[5] and while it did make improvements, I thought you might want to know a couple of things it could do better. The replacement of the Cite-missing template disturbed the infobox on the right side of the page, and graduation dates (e.g., '02) was expanded to 2002. Thanks anyway though. Xiner (talk, email) 01:44, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

You're right about the year issue, and I'll probably revert my own reverts later. As for the cleanup tags, the bot-corrected version[6] renders the new tag across the page at 800x600. I guess my resolution isn't the most common. Xiner (talk, email) 16:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm posting a note to Talk:Turn Left about the date issue. Please contribute your thoughts. Thanks. Xiner (talk, email) 16:18, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Tony Terran

Sentence that mentions Tony Terran on page 56 chapter 6 (Phil Spector & The Wrecking Crew) in Hal Blaine's book

"Steve Douglas was usually on sax along with Nino Tempo (April Stevens and Nono had the big hit Deep Purple), Jay Migliori and Roy Caton on trumpet along with Ollie Mitchell and Tony Terran." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Daveterran (talk • contribs) 19:00, 14 January 2007 (UTC).

Hi Rich

Thank you so much for helping with the article! I just asked my dad about Charles and Henry, and the names didn't ring a bell. It's very possible he could have worked with them though. What did they do in the entertainment business?--Daveterran 23:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: Hi Rich

My dad probably recorded with the Spinners, but he would not have known any of the band members other than saying hi informally. Since that bass player worked with Wynton, my dad probably didn't know him either because I don't think my dad ever worked with Wynton.--Daveterran 00:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

My dad doesn't know a lot of the younger cats like Wynton and his musicians. He did some touring with older guys like Dizzy Gillespie, Freddy Hubbard, Benny Goodman, etc. Sadly, most of the people my dad worked with are dead. Are you a musician?--Daveterran 00:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

{{fact}} and {{expand}}?

SmackBot is dating {{fact}} and {{expand}}, which do not seem to be dated templates when I just checked. Am I wrong about this? I also didn't see them in the list of tags the bot cleans up. --Keitei (talk) 04:33, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

You're right, expand should become "dated" soon, and will be fairly easy. Fact and verify I am only dating in articles I am already visiting to date other tags, I expect them to become "dated" over the next few weeks. Rich Farmbrough, 10:48 15 January 2007 (GMT).

Maybe my observation is more for whomever maintains the {{cite ...}} templates. I've noticed that at least for me, they do not seem to know about wikilinking dates. For instance, please see this edit I made: [7]. Putting the retrieved date inside the braces yields red dates, for me. Keesiewonder 22:48, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it looks ok because I did this
{{cite encyclopedia | title =Lutheranism | encyclopedia =The Catholic Encyclopedia | volume =IX | pages = | publisher =Robert Appleton Company | date =1910 | id = | url =http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09458a.htm | accessdate =}} Retrieved on [[January 14]], [[2007]]

instead of this

{{cite encyclopedia | title =Lutheranism | encyclopedia =The Catholic Encyclopedia | volume =IX | pages = | publisher =Robert Appleton Company | date =1910 | id = | url =http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09458a.htm | accessdate = Retrieved on [[January 14]], [[2007]]}} Please note position of closing pair of }}. Keesiewonder 01:36, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

This should work, though:

{{cite encyclopedia | title =Lutheranism | encyclopedia =The Catholic Encyclopedia | volume =IX | pages = | publisher =Robert Appleton Company | date =1910 | id = | url =http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09458a.htm | accessdate = 2007-01-14}}

the YYYY-MM-DD format is, I believe, what is required for the accessdate field of the "cite" templates. They are linked as part of the template, also, so don't put brackets around them. Lyrl ^Talk _C 00:55, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah - Good to know, Lyrl! I hadn't picked up on the YYYY-MM-DD yet. Thanks for pointing that out!!! Keesiewonder 01:36, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Well actually you can put "accessdate=12 November| accessyear=2007" or accessmonthday=12 January|accessyear=2007 .. confusing, eh?

COinS

Responded. — Omegatron 14:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello Rich! I'm commenting under COinS, because it could be a related issue. Here [8] I suggested that SmackBot may not be programmed to handle the 'isbn=' keyword that was recently added to 'cite book'. Diberri has already changed his tool, apparently, to use the new 'cite book' syntax. Please reply at User_talk:Diberri#Wikipedia_template_filling. if I am correct in suspecting this. EdJohnston 22:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

caps section?

what do you mean by this on the Kristi Tauti. I am afraid that I do not understand.Angel,Isaac 22:07, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

SmackBot inserted lots of copies of image

In two edits on the condom page (diff), the bot first replaced all <!-- --> tags with {{ASIN}}, and then replaced the characters with copies of an image from the beginning of the article. (It also dated the citation needed and expandsect tags.) Any idea why it would insert random characters and images like that? Lyrl ^Talk _C 00:51, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I think a history glitch. Rich Farmbrough, 11:54 17 January 2007 (GMT).

Signpost updated for January 15th, 2007.

The Wikipedia Signpost Weekly Delivery

Volume 3, Issue 3	15 January 2007	About the Signpost

Special: 2006 in Review, Part II	New arbitrators interviewed
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You are receiving this message because you have signed up for the Signpost spamlist. If you wish to stop receiving these messages, simply remove your name from the list. Ralbot 06:04, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The Royal Court and States Building ISBN

My copy of The Royal Court and States Building, Philip Le Brocq, 1998, Jersey states:

• ISBN 0 9533223 0

Man vyi 07:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing my mistake!

[9] — Sebastian 16:06, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a pleasure, but it only worked on the first category, whcih is very strange... Rich Farmbrough, 16:38 11 January 2007 (GMT).

Weird! I'll look into it! — Sebastian 18:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)    (I stopped watching this page. If you would like to continue the talk, please do so here and ping me.)

I can't figure it out, and I posted a question on the helpdesk. — Sebastian 18:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I did eventually figure it out - there were some hidden characters before the colons. — Sebastian 03:54, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

List of NYPD Blue characters SmackBot

Uhh...what is your bot smoking? It removed the links from the titles which were placed there to link to the characters. A list just isn't a list if you don't have the characters' wikipedia articles linked to. Without it you have a very, very dead page with no further information on them. Please clean it up; I don't want to change it yet incase this is the intended function of your bot (if so I apologize). SMC 08:32, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you shouldn't have links in headers, both as a matter of stlye, and technically, people who have selected "click on section header to edit" will be unable ot click on the link. I've revised the layout. Rich Farmbrough, 09:39 16 January 2007 (GMT).

Thanks. 144.134.35.134 23:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

SmackBot dating maintenance tags on talk pages

I respectfully submit that this edit is not particularly helpful to the goal of keeping a list-of-things-needing-to-be-done well sorted. Perhaps it would be an idea to exclude talk space from the tag-dating process? When maintenance tags appear on talk pages it is most often because they are being talked about, or as part of text that was moved from articlespace for documentation purposes. Henning Makholm 00:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

There are three points here:

• When talking about tags ideally use {{tl}} to give the effect {{expand}}.
• Secondly using tags still put pages into the categories, so they need someone to take them out (and in fact I have done this with most of the tags SB looks at).
• Thirdly there is a group of editors who believe that cleanup tags should go on talk pages, hence the several thousand talk pages tagged {{expand}}.

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 09:45 17 January 2007 (GMT).

P.S. I generally do talk pages by hand. RF/

Suggested wikification

Hello. You recently suggested that someone Wikify an article I wrote called Russian traditions and superstitions. I'm confused as to what needs to happen in order to "wikify" it. Could you make a more concrete suggestion, because I'm not quite sure what I need to do to it. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Abbadonnergal (talk • contribs) 15:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

Hi, you want user:69.208.78.151, SmackBot merely dates such notices. However you may fiond the advice you need at WP:WIKIFY. Rich Farmbrough, 16:29 17 January 2007 (GMT).

Pairing of ISBN-10s and -13s

Hi Rich, this is just a reply to your recent comment [10] over at cat:invalid. My point is just that every ISBN-13 beginning with 978 has a twin that's an ISBN-10. (This is even dramatized by the fact that Amazon uses that trick to look up ISBN-13s by first transforming to an ISBN-10, as you can see by watching the URL in the address bar). So as long as the 978's continue to be issued there is an effective pair (ISBN-10, ISBN-13) of which either part suffices to identify the book, since either one can be transformed into the other according to a rule. Our only uncertainty is about when the first 979 ISBNs will come out because then the trick stops working. Of course I am mentioning this as part of my go-slow campaign on converting WP over to ISBN-13. My theory (and I'm open to rebuttals here) is that ISBN-10s provided as part of a book reference will continue to work indefinitely, although isbn.org has not sworn in blood that that is the case.

If my theory continues to hold, then since every old-style ISBN is now in truth a pair of equivalent codes (one 10-digit, the other 13-digit) we are not truly gaining anything by flipping a reference over from the 10-digit version to the 13-digit version. When the first 979 codes appear, they only exist in a 13-digit version, so there is no conversion required there. So in either case, doing a length conversion via SmackBot seems unnecessary. Until such time that isbn.org brings down the hammer and tells all book dealers and libraries to reject ISBN-10s, which seems unlikely to happen. After all, CODENs are still in use, and so are LCCNs, and libraries are not removing them from their files. Though I guess a person is not going to succeed in ordering a book these days using either one.

It does seem reasonable to enter every book published in 2007 or later into WP with an ISBN-13, however. EdJohnston 02:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure 10 digits will be acceptable to most (existing) systems for a very long time, I might suggest an earlier start date for using 13 digits than 1/1/7 - 1/1/5 for instance. Bear in mind that the ISBN agency says: ""ISBN data output – general considerations All external transmission of the ISBN should utilise the 13-digit manifestation after 1 January 2007." Regardless no bulk transformation is very likely on WP, so the cross-over date will be ragged. Rich Farmbrough, 10:23 18 January 2007 (GMT).

Thoughts?

Would you leave the charles whitham references alone? I am trying to sort this out - I have had some delays - I will try to sort it out in the next 24 hours SatuSuro 06:57, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Just received this. This has been an ongoing struggle with this gent to accept the fact that the ISBN shown should just be dropped. It predates the ISBN process as I have indicated in the error (M=Row). He has already admitted to errors in these citations. I have completely researched this effort including going to the national library in Australia. This has been an issue for weeks now and has not been resolved by him. Thoughts? Ekotkie 14:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Well we are in no hurry. Which article is it? SatuSuro is usually a good guy. Rich Farmbrough, 15:13 18 January 2007 (GMT).

Look for the M=row items calling out Tasmania. The first one I just now looked at had two more refs to the same book/author but the errant isbn has been dropped. That is all I recommended him to do. I sure don't need his excessive chatter on the subject, just do it. He may be a good guy to you but even kessie asked me to back off on him weeks ago because of a futiure Whitman citation and I did. He is slow to perform. He even had Kessie's assistance. Is there any way you can put out a hunt for that book and kill the isbn ref en masse? He has some sort of hangup about the Cat Invalid tag and how it is casting a bad light on the Whitman fellow. That isn't true. Whitman didn't create the page. He needs to get a grip. I tried extra hard to search for that elusive 2003 book short isbn he has inserted. No dice. Ekotkie 00:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Please see this and this and let me know if you have any questions. Thanks! Keesiewonder 01:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC) P.S. I guess it'd help me to know exactly which articles are in question too. I don't think there's any need to back off, but, rather, perhaps, follow the model of what he and I came up with my my subpage. Keesiewonder 01:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Gawd the weird and wonderful world of wikipedia. For a start I have started Charles Whitham article very long after I said I would, my apologies to all over that. The Tasmanian State Library and Australian National Library do not have the 2003 edition (which is being sold in Queenstown currently) - what happened was that the typist in Queenstown when the proofs were being made left out a number - the interesting thing is the Tasmanian State Library refused to offer any solution to the wrong isbn and pointed the finger elsewhere. The solution provided by Keesiwonder - I am very pleased with and have nothing but very positive reaction to such help. I am sorry that I have lacked sufficient Witiquette respect to Ekotkie, but (a) I created all the articles which had Whitham in the reference (b) I dont have a PC so I cannot do a quick AWB solution - I use an imac.... (c) My unreserved apologies to all - I have a 4,000 + page watchlist - am living a complicated real life during my childrens school holidays - and am trying to cope with vandalism and edit wars as well as work on stubs in three separate WP projects - if I cannot do something straight away - I would think I have a grip on more than what is said above! I seem to spend my daylight hours trying to enthuse new users to understand WP:Civility god only hope others can do it without extra encouragement .

• (d) Just in case there are further items about this - (1) the Whitham edition of 2003 had a wrong isbn, and there appear to be no current means to ascertaining the correct form. (2) The stub Charles Whitham has the full details of the book (3) unless some smart cookie with AWB use gets in before me - I will go to every article with the citation and attempt to establish a citation that refers back to the Charles Whitham article for full details. May we all be given the grace of patience and understanding in this new year and only bite vandals. SatuSuro 05:09, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

BTW thanks rich for your comment about me -it is appreciated SatuSuro 05:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

So ... I maintain that if we want to help SatSuro out with the numerous Whitman references, if we follow the style at this link we'll get something off our list and his ... :-) ... i.e. dropping the ISBN is fine if other info is retained. Keesiewonder 09:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

As long as there is no sign of the isbn number under any circumstances - I would prefer a link back to the article about whitham SatuSuro 09:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Understood; I've updated my sub-user page. Keesiewonder 09:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks!

Hey, thanks for getting my signature to work right. It's very much appreciated. .V. -- (^Talk_Email) 22:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello

Regarding the article New Ash Green - you have edited, have you got any green idea about the origin of the name?

Eliko 23:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Apart from a new green (as in foliage and/or grass) development near Ash? Rich Farmbrough, 23:39 18 January 2007 (GMT).

Template:cite book

I fixed all the cite book errors I could find. As you said there were not as many as I feared. The only one I could not fix was History of Ukraine as it is protected. Thanks for the advice. --Droll 06:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Ukraine done. Rich Farmbrough, 10:46 19 January 2007 (GMT).

Stubs

Rich, when is a stub page no longer considered a stub? I have developed a page for John Lescroart, author, and installed a lot of data, including personal content. Also curious about this funny looking red book that appears next to the flag at the lower left of the page. I've clicked on it and the outline doesn't really tell me much. Also need a bit of clarification about the internal Wiki mail. I have found comments, addressed to me, on various peoples talk pages that never were placed on my talk page. Quite frankly I am a bit dismayed that since I don't go running around looking at other peoples talk pages for mail to myself, I have failed to respond to comments directed to me. In using this clumsy internal mail system I have always directed my comments to another person to their page. I do not find this being reciprocated in kind. Having used e-mail since I first used it on Arpnet I have always tried to respond in a professional and timely manner. Now I find that since I do not read other peoples talk pages, that I am out of the loop. Comments? Ekotkie 23:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I think the flag is for the country, the book for "novelist". If you think it's no longer a stub, remove the stub designation - in this case I think it's justified. I generally reply on peoples own talk pages (and put the reply on my own for my "records"), and generally look for a reply on mine. Soemtimes I forget and only put the reply on one talk page, meaning to copy it later. I rarely check back on other's talk pages, but I know some people do. Some people put "instructions" on the top of their talk pages. Some people use their watchlists to keep an eye for a reply (see my talk page "Thanks for fixing my mistake!" User:Sebastian seems to have a system for this that changes his signiture). One thing that may help is if you set your signiture to include a link to your talk page. A system that has been tried, and almost works is like the following section, which is shared across both pages, put doesn't trigger the orange mesasge bar, and may not always show updates...

Rgds, Rich Farmbrough, 23:25 19 January 2007 (GMT).

Shared section

Some dummy text for demoing it.

Rich Farmbrough, 23:25 19 January 2007 (GMT).

Oh-oh....you just lost me with that term. Ekotkie 23:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

As soon as I dropped the stub comment, the funny red book symbol went away. Ekotkie 17:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

"Justified" to leave or remove? I have a bit more to add to that page but I'm trying to be care about encroachment on the authors site.

(Justified to remove.) RF

I will have to mull about this mail business. It seems quite haphazard and prone to potential info loss. Not healthy for a "team work environment". For sure I couldn't built an airplane this way. Ekotkie 23:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it mail... the Wikimedia software works pretty well for the actual articles, less well for policy and talk. Despite the constant improvement the fact that it is still to some extent "string and sealing wax" is shown by the layers of complexity in templates, guidelines, bots etc.

Rich Farmbrough, 10:05 20 January 2007 (GMT).

The vision that comes to my mind is "string and tin can" Ekotkie 21:15, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Bot edits to template_talk pages

These two edits are a bit odd: [11] [12] What was the bot trying to do? --- RockMFR 18:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

In theory self-ref templates should have a categry parameter which allows their illustrative use, while overriding the categorisation. Rich Farmbrough, 18:43 20 January 2007 (GMT).

P.S. now implemented for these two templates. Rich Farmbrough, 18:52 20 January 2007 (GMT).

CT:INV proposal (to reduce breakup of conversations)

Hello Rich. EdK has noted that messages relayed through other people's talk pages may not reach the intended recipient. I suggest we might try physically moving new ISBN-related discussion threads from individual talk pages over to Category talk:Articles with invalid ISBNs. Since I can't speak for others, I thought I might begin doing it for conversations that begin on my own User_talk that concern specific ISBNs. Each time I do such a move I'd leave a pointer behind. I assume that anyone fixing ISBNs these days probably has a watch set on the Category talk page, so they wouldn't miss seeing any messages left there.

I tried to do that in reporting repair progress but other then getting responses, it didn't seem to connect with others doing repairs. It certainly would have avoided some of the communication disconnects that have occurred. I really don't think that this system is "communication friendly". I learned very early on that if you want someone to receive your comments, put them on their page.......EdK

While we're at it, does anyone object if I create a new shortcut? I propose CT:INV to point to Category talk:Articles with invalid ISBNs. EdJohnston 20:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if this is a Firefox point but once typed in my system retains the words. Now when I want to go to that area I merely type the "c" and it call out all "c" related paths that I have used. The same applies to all typing like that, at least on my system it does. Ekotkie 21:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Yep, but I use various machines and browesers, and look at a lot of categories! So yes, it could be useful to me. Rich Farmbrough, 22:15 20 January 2007 (GMT).

Centralized communication can be a good thing; we always have user talk pages if we prefer for whatever reason. I don't have a preference on a new shortcut, other than if it'd help someone, do it. I am not in the habit of using them much. Keesiewonder ^talk 22:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Uncategorised stubs

Whoops - looks like I misunderstood the reason for these. There was an earlier template and category for "uncategorised stubs" that was simply everything in Category:Stubs that no-one could think of the correct stub type for. It was deleted via WP:SFD as being a bad idea. I had somehow thought these were the same idea. Apologies. Grutness...wha? 22:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

AfD Nomination: Danny Graham

An article that you have been involved in editing, Danny Graham, has been listed by me at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Danny Graham. Please look there to see why this is, if you are interested in whether it should be deleted. Thank you. --Jerry lavoie 05:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC) Jerry lavoie 05:34, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: Tufte "Ced Date fragments delinked"

Ha, great, thanks; that's what Dr. Tufte would want! --CliffC 23:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Please use the plus tab when starting new conversations on talk pages

When you add new sections to talk pages like you did to create User talk:Cacycle/wikEd#Documentation, it would help if you used the + tab rather than simply editing the last conversation. When I saw you posted in User talk:Cacycle/wikEd#I can host some wikEd-related galleries for you, I thought you were replying to me. Will (Talk - contribs) 00:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm.../ Point made. Rich Farmbrough, 09:49 22 January 2007 (GMT).

The template I used was brand new. Do you think the wording needs adjustment? Will (Talk - contribs) 10:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

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Category:Articles to be trimmed

The category you wrote, Category:Articles to be trimmed, is uncategorized. Please help improve it by adding it to one or more categories, so it may be associated with related categories.Eli Falk 06:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Long ISBNs

Are we now using long ISBNs? Is there a particular procedure for changing them over? I was wondering because not all the links in Special:Booksources seem capable of handling them, although at least one (Amazon UK) does now when it failed previously (which is nice). TIA HAND —Phil | Talk 16:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Phil, Really we need to monitor the booksources until we reach a critical level. However Wikipedia pressure or requests may actually convince some to change over. Also there is a little resistance (which I sympathaise with upto a point) to having other than the "printed" ISBN as the reference. The third problem is my disk with the scripts on is in a bit of bother at the moment. Rich Farmbrough, 17:02 23 January 2007 (GMT).

I had a problem with Amazon accepting unhyphenated ISBN-13, but not hyphenated. It might be worth checking elsewhere for the same phenomenon. --KSmrq^T 18:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I thought booksources stripped the hyphens? Rich Farmbrough, 20:08 23 January 2007 (GMT).

That I do not know; I entered the number manually at Amazon. --KSmrq^T 22:07, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, Worldcat seems to be automatically offering both ISBN and ISBN-13s now for their records. --Gwern (contribs) 22:30 23 January 2007 (GMT)

PS No reason not to use full ISBNs for any new entries. Rich Farmbrough, 10:40 24 January 2007 (GMT).

In doing so I would still highly recommend NOT to use any hyphens. IMHO, this is a potential problem area. Ekotkie 22:54, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Smackbot erroneously removed underscore from a link

Just a heads up: In this edit, while correctly adding a date to a {{fact}} tag, it erroneously "corrected" the link Cry_Wolf to Cry Wolf. While usually underscores in links is wrong, in this case it's correct (per Cry_Wolf). It might be good for SmackBot to note in the edit summary if it's doing underscore removal. — Alan De Smet | Talk 04:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

This is a (generally useful) feature of the underlying AWB software. I have put in a feature request, which will deal with these special cases. Rich Farmbrough, 19:17 26 January 2007 (GMT).