Talk:Independence/Democracy/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Legal status of groups between 11 June and 14 July

User:Setwisohi. hi! Thank you for your edits to this article regarding IND/DEM between 11 June (provisional election results) and 14 July (constitutive session of the Seventh). You need to understand the following:

  • The 2009-2014 term (the Seventh European Parliament) starts at the constitutive session in Strasbourg on 14 July 2009 (that's why it's called the constitutive session).
  • The MEPs elected in the June elections do not become MEPs until that date.
  • The MEPs immediately before the election are still the MEPs: their terms do not expire until 13 July 2009.
  • That is why the Europarl website still gives UEN as having 44 MEPs. I provide the link here so that you can check.

Why do you need to know this?

  • Because UEN did not collapse on 11 June.
  • It did not collapse at that date because it still officially had 44 MEPs at that date.
  • Ceteris paribus, UEN would have collapsed on 14 July because at that point but not before, it would officially have 18 MEPs.

I hope this makes the status clear. That is why I've been at pains to insert the phrase de facto regarding group statuses during this transitional period: they will not become de jure until 14 July.

Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 00:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Diagrammatic depiction of data at a known date

User:Setwisohi, hi! Thank you for your edits regarding the December 2007 map. Dealing with your points as follows:

  • Your contention that the map is unsourced
You are correct in saying that the map is not given in the source. If it was in the source, then it could not be used, since it would be copyright. However, the data which the map depicts is in the source: page 9 to be exact. I provide the link to the source here so you can check. The pictorial depiction of sourced data is entirely permissible: were it not, then the Graphics Lab would have to delete all the the maps and diagrams that it has done. Your contention is not a valid reason for deleting the map.


Of course the production of maps from statistics is normal practice on Wikipedia. But this map has been badly done. To give, for example, the 0% - 1% figure is misleading. To give that the same colour - albeit a different shade - as the others is doubly misleading. To "slant" results like this is OR and against Wikipedia policy. Your contention that this is not a valid reason for deleting the map is incorrect. Setwisohi (talk) 10:07, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


Dealing with your points:
  • Why shades of one color rather than different colors?
See also 1: Geographical Information System for the Commission: Directorate D - Unit D2 Regional Statistics and Geographical Information
See also 2: ColorBrewer (click on sequential)
Different colors are used when the data are qualitative and non-ordinal (apples, oranges, pears). But the IND/DEM data are not qualitative and non-ordinal. Instead, they are quantitative and ordinal (1,2,3,4...). In such cases, shades of a single color are used.
  • Why the non-linear scale?
See also 3: COB data Tsunami deaths.PNG, 44520OBESITY-STATES.jpg
Non-linear scales are used when the data are not evenly distributed and are heavily bunched (see skewness and kurtosis), which is the situation we have with the various groups.
  • Why that color?
See also 4: Standard group colors
The color was chosen to not be identified with a specific group.
  • Why just do a map for IND/DEM?
See also 5: EPP-ED map, EPP group article, ALDE map, ALDE group article
I didn't. The map is part of a set.
  • Further reading
See also 6: "The Visual Display of Quantitative Information" (Tufte, 2001), "Beautiful Evidence" (Tufte, 2006), "Show Me the Numbers: Designing Tables and Graphs to Enlighten", (Few, 2004)
Tufte has a good rep but is apparently self-contradictory, Few is possibly better in this context.
Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 13:38, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Your contention that the map is out of date
Of course the map is out of date: all maps and diagrams become out of date the second they are created. A map/diagram is the depiction of data at a specific point in time: the fact that that specific point in time is in the past is not a valid reason for deleting it. Such maps/diagrams should be labeled with the date/time it represents.
  • Your contention that the map is misleading
The map accurately depicts IND/DEM's geographical extent at December 2007. It is labeled as depicting IND/DEM's geographical extent at December 2007. It is not therefore misleading. Your contention is not a valid reason for deleting the map.


Of course the map is out of date as soon as produced. I assumed that one would take that as read. The problem with the map being out of date relates to the issue of the map being misleading. Taking these two points together; without providing a map which shows the results of the 2009 election, and the significant depletion in electoral success for the IND/DEM group, this map is visually misleading to the reader. It is "out of date" in that sense. (Imagine if we had a 1940 map of Germany and no more up to date equivalent. Would that not be misleading?) Your contention that this is not a valid reason for deleting the map is therefore incorrect. Setwisohi (talk) 10:07, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


Your point is actually incorrect (for example, the 1920's Weimar Republic article has a map of Germany for the period and does not have a map of the present federal republic), but your point contains its own solution - it's easier to address the point by adding more maps for IND/DEM at beginning and end, rather than argue that the point is invalid. I shall do those maps immediately and add them to the article. Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 22:53, 3 July 2009 (UTC)



Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 00:25, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

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