[WikiEN-l] Classification of China?

Sun Apr 27 18:09:40 UTC 2003

Zoe wrote:

> Please explain what discipline is applied to those within the hierachy 
> who deviate from the canon in the United States government.
>  

Well, you can get fired if you're not in one of the protected Civil
Service jobs. There is also a whole system of rewards and
punishments, for instance in choice of foreign postings in the
State Dept, choice of assigned commands in the military, etc.

But I think you missed my point.  I don't consider the US govt to be
at all authoritarian; Fred Bauder's definition was so broad that any
non-anarchy would fit.  A cleverer definition might have said
something about criminal penalties for political dissent, which
is not too hard to test for, although it doesn't really work for
private organizations that one might think of as "authoritarian".

Stan

> Zoe, who is tired of being polite
>
> */Stan Shebs <shebs at apple.com>/* wrote:
>
>     You'll have to do better than that! - your description applies equally
>     well to the United States government, and to both the Green Party
>     and Libertarian Party. And therein lies the problem with attempts
>     to say a government is or is not authoritarian, communist, or
>     whatever - those kinds of terms are editorial assessments of a
>     pattern of objectively observed behavior. Even if 99% of people
>     believe the assessment, the only truly NPOV thing you can say is
>     "99% of observers believe the government to be authoritarian".
>
>     Stan
>
>     Fred Bauder wrote:
>
>     >No, the Roman Catholic church is authoritarian in different ways, for
>     >example, one person, the Pope, has the power to issue edits
>     binding upon all
>     >catholics. There is a hierarchal structure, an official canon, and
>     >discipline applied to those within the hierachy who deviate from
>     the canon.>All goes to show that if you change the subject, you
>     change the question and
>     >the answer.
>     >
>     >Fred
>     >
>     >
>     >>From: Sean Barrett
>     >>Organization: Boskonia
>     >>Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>     >>Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:06:19 -0700
>     >>To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>     >>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Classification of China?
>     >>
>     >>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>     >>Hash: SHA1
>     >>
>     >>And the Catholic Church (for another example you used of an
>     present-day
>     >>authoritarian organization) does any of these things? I can (I have)
>     >>written letters extremely critical of Cardinal Mahoney that were
>     >>published -- without interference -- in the free press. Should I
>     fear
>     >>the Spanish Inquisition?
>     >>
>     >>Methinks your definition of "authoritarian organization" is
>     remarkably
>     >>broad if it lumps the C! atholic Church in with the Butchers of
>     Beijing.
>     >>
>     >>It makes me wonder how fluid your definition of "truth" is.
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>Fred Bauder wrote:
>     >>| The criteria are control of the press, repression of political
>     speech,
>     >>| imprisonment of those who atempt to organize an opposing political
>     >>party or
>     >>| a union, etc.
>     >>|
>     >>| Fred
>     >>|
>     >>|
>     >>|>From: Vicki Rosenzweig
>     >>|>Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>     >>|>Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:31:58 -0400
>     >>|>To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>     >>|>Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Classification of China?
>     >>|>
>     >>|>At 05:16 PM 4/25/03 -0600, Fred Bauder wrote:
>     >>|>
>     >>|>>I intend to speak truth. China (and the Catholic church, for
>     another
>     >>|>>example) are authoritarian. \ It is not merely a mat! ter of
>     the opinion of
>     >>|>>vague critics. There are objective criteria which if met
>     constitute an
>     >>|>>authoritarian government.
>     >>|>
>     >>|>This concerns me, not because I disagree, but because I don't know
>     >>|>what objective criteria Fred is using, and because almost
>     anyone who
>     >>|>promotes a point of view sincerely believes that he or she is
>     speaking
>     >>|>truth.
>     >>|>
>     >>|>The determination to speak truth, while admirable, is not the
>     same as
>     >>|>NPOV, which is our policy.
>     >>|>
>     >>|>
>     >>|>
>     >>|>>Fred
>     >>|>>
>     >>|>>
>     >>|>>>From: Daniel Ehrenberg
>     >>|>>>Reply-To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>     >>|>>>Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:32:01 -0700 (PDT)
>     >>|>>>To: wikien-l at wikipedia.org
>     >>|>>&! gt;Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Classification of China?
>     >>|>>>
>     >>|>>>You can't just say "China is an evil totalitarian
>     >>|>>>country" (I know that's not what you said) or even
>     >>|>>>"China is a controlling country" because that's an
>     >>|>>>opinion, not a fact. The communist party in China
>     >>|>>>might think "We're not controlling or authoritarian,
>     >>|>>>we just want the best for our citizens", which makes
>     >>|>>>the comment POV. You could say (in a later
>     >>|>>>paragraph), "China is critisized for being
>     >>|>>>[[authoritarianism and
>     >>|>>>totalitarianism|authoritarianist]].
>     >>|>>>
>     >>|>>>--- Fred Bauder wrote:
>     >>|>>>
>     >>|>>>
>     >>|>>>>I stirred up this hornet's nest by inserting a l! ink
>     >>|>>>>to [[authoritarianism
>     >>|>>>>and totalitarianism|authoritarian]] into the first
>     >>|>>>>paragraph of the article.
>     >>|>>>>I think this is a fair characterization of the
>     >>|>>>>regime (regardless of what
>     >>|>>>>ever other adjective might describe it).
>     >>|>
>     >>|>--
>     >>|>Vicki Rosenzweig
>     >>|>vr at redbird.org
>     >>|>http://www.redbird.org
>     >>|>
>     >>|>_______________________________________________
>     >>|>WikiEN-l mailing list
>     >>|>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>     >>|>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>     >>|
>     >>|
>     >>| _______________________________________________
>     >>| WikiEN-l mailing list
>     >>| WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>     >>| http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>     >>
>     &g! t;>
>     >>- --
>     >>~ Sean Barrett | John and Mary had never met. They were like
>     >>~ sean at epoptic.com | two hummingbirds who had also never met.
>     >>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>     >>Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (MingW32)
>     >>Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>     >>
>     >>iD8DBQE+qc16v/8xpnvE6M8RAgzSAJwIu7RjTPanefl1Dhj2tpYHIVDL+QCbBPQg
>     >>38nIk0sB52iPC06Fw/0onlk=
>     >>=ErzZ
>     >>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>     >>
>     >>_______________________________________________
>     >>WikiEN-l mailing list
>     >>WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>     >>http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>     >>
>     >
>     >_______________________________________________
>     >WikiEN-l mailing list
>     >WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>     >http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>     >
>     >
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     WikiEN-l ! mailing list
>     WikiEN-l at wikipedia.org
>     http://www.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The New Yahoo! Search 
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/search/mailsig/*http://search.yahoo.com> - 
> Faster. Easier. Bingo.