Talk:United States

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 May 2024

change "African Americans constitute the country's third-largest ancestry group" to "African Americans constitute the country's third-largest ancestry group" Doctorgulielmus (talk) 22:49, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

@Doctorgulielmus: it's linked now, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 22:57, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

"[...] the United States has had the largest nominal GDP since about 1890 [...]"

Japan had a larger average nominal GDP than the U.S. between 1990 and 1995 according to the linked article.-- Maxeto0910 (talk) 18:21, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, this linked article you've recomend to me, it's extremely reliable, that's undeniable, however, it need be updated, because (Obiviously), 1990 has gone long time ago, so the chance of this having changed is quite high, in fact, it doesn't even need to go very far, considering that Japan is going through problems, including the economy. 177.105.90.20 (talk) 20:35, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Needs correction of 'national government' and elaboration on federal government's legitimacy.

The article incorrectly names the federal government as the national government. As a nation, we have no government in the USA, we are ruled through martial supremacy by the federal government, which only falsely presents itself to the world as the nation's government. The article should clarify that the nation gets no participation or representation in the federal government, and no public acknowledgement by the federal government. The federal government is 100% comprised and representative of the middle class and upper class, with the remaining 85% of the nation (the lower class) excluded from involvement for all but non-decision-related roles.

The article makes no mention of criticism of the federal government's legitimacy, which is a common subject of discussion within the nation, especially among the lower class, as we generally reject this body of rulership as a presence of legitimate government. Related to this issue, the article should elaborate on the federal government's generous use of numerous martial law acts in response to riots in our cities when the people demanded that the federal government resign and withdraw from all governance activity related to those cities- demands which remain entirely unsatisfied, and really should get a mention in the article.

As the article is presently worded, it paints a highly inaccurate image of there being some kind of unity between the nation and the federal government by neglecting to make any mention at all of the tension and even conflict that actually exists in that space, and I suspect that deception was willfully designed into it. As a citizen of the USA, I care that this article is reasonably complete and fair. Editors, please consider these suggestions for revisions. 2601:1C2:C001:4BA0:8917:5F1E:5A56:C5E4 (talk) 05:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I do not agree with everything that you say here, but this seems like a good-faith proposal, and Wikipedia behavioral guidelines discourage removing the comments of others, so I am restoring this comment. Regardless of its legitimacy, the U.S. federal government has been influential and notable enough to warrant significant discussion in this article, though its role could perhaps be framed differently. I agree that this article could improve its adherence to the neutral point of view policy, but others will take you more seriously if you suggest a concrete, specific edit to wording or content, especially if you provide sources that back up your proposed change.  — Freoh 16:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Spanish name in infobox

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

@Mason.Jones, TheBritinator, 48JCL, and Dhtwiki: I am retracting my proposal now. It is clear this is an unproductive discussion over a relatively trivial matter that has blown out of proportion, and that it is not useful for any of us to go forward with it. The infobox should stay as it is, at least for now. Consider all my discussion below this sentence annulled.

Small question: should the Spanish name of the United States of America (Estados Unidos de América) be included in the infobox? I'm not quite sure myself but I thought it might be important because the secondary native languages of other countries also appear in the infobox. I want to hear opinions from other Wikipedians before I make such a change however.

Hypothetical Spanish included infobox:

United States of America Estados Unidos de América (Spanish)
Flag Coat of arms
ISO 3166 code	US

―Howard • 🌽³³ 13:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC); edited 16:53, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: Only about 14% of the US population speaks Spanish, so though it is the second largest language in the country it is still in the minority by a huge margin. In my opinion, languages on the infobox should be reserved for constitutionally recognized ones and those that have a significant amount in the country, I would use Belgium as an example here. TheBritinator (talk) 14:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

How much is a "significant" amount? Is there a percentage for this kind of thing? ―Howard • 🌽³³ 14:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, I am not sure if there is a strict number, but 14% seems far too low to justify inclusion on the country as a whole. I could see it for a state level where perhaps Spanish is more significant.

I would also like to add that historical context is also pretty important, such as with Louisiana, I'd imagine it has French and Spanish due to its shared history with French Louisiana (named after a French king) and New Spain, so it would make sense to include it despite the languages actually being in a small minority. TheBritinator (talk) 14:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Of course historical context is also a vague concept considering that much of the modern-day United States was historically controlled by the Spanish Empire (see: Spanish America). How much historical context is necessary for inclusion? ―Howard • 🌽³³ 14:29, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The United States itself was not formed of Spanish heritage. TheBritinator (talk) 15:34, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The modern-day United States is certainly formed of Spanish heritage. Several states (California, Nevada, New Mexico, Florida, Arizona) have clear Spanish heritage. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 15:42, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I lean towards opposing this, mainly because somewhere we have to draw the line between what we include and don't include, and it will be very hard to come up with an explanation for why we do things one way for Spanish in the US and differently for other places and languages. I realize that slippery-slope arguments aren't great, and Languages of the United States does show that Spanish has a much larger speakership than other US languages, but I think the infobox isn't a place we should include this in a possibly contentious way when the info is already available elsewhere. Toadspike [Talk] 14:25, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Hm. Perhaps this should be moved to a larger discussion on which languages should be included in a country's infobox, since the Template:Infobox Country merely states that the native_name parameter be filled in with "its official/defacto language(s)". Official languages have a solid definition but "De Facto" doesn't. I think a standard for inclusion should be defined. What do you think? ―Howard • 🌽³³ 14:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I get your point, but 14% would by no imagination constitute a defacto language. This is what I was talking about when I said significant ones. Sure, a clear parameter could be set for this, but the United States is definitely not it. TheBritinator (talk) 15:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

14% would by my imagination constitute a de facto language, which is why I started this discussion in the first place. Briefly looking up a couple of sources (not in-depth research to be clear), some academic sources have considered, suggested, or outright noted Spanish as the second de-facto language (or de-facto second language) of the United States. I'm not sure if this settles the discussion on whether Spanish is a de facto language of the United States, but it is not out of many people's imagination.

―Howard • 🌽³³ 16:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose the rise of Spanish speaking people is starting to grow especially after the wave of Mexican immigrants, so IF this is proposed in a couple years, I will probably support it. 48JCL ^(talk) 20:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Dual-language names are used throughout Wikipedia, but only when both languages have official, or at least coequal, status in the country. They are not used when there is a minority (13.2%, two-thirds of them fluent in English) who speak the second language at home and can access some government services in Spanish, or if Spaniards colonized the territory centuries ago like the French or Dutch. Spanish is not even a required foreign language in U.S. schools—the hallmark of a bilingual, bicultural nation-state like Canada or Finland. (Spanish is a language option like French.) Wikipedia has no reason to manufacture a bilingual nation-state that simply doesn't exist. Wikipedia reports what is, not what some editors wish it were. Mason.Jones (talk) 15:07, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

"Dual-language names are used throughout Wikipedia, but only when both languages have official, or at least coequal, status in the country. "

The infobox template does not specify this. It merely states that they have to be "its official/defacto language(s)". Does Wikipedia policy have a specified standard for what counts as "de facto"? Considering the sources I have noted above, it appears there is ambiguity of what languages can be considered "de facto".

"Wikipedia has no reason to manufacture a bilingual nation-state that simply doesn't exist. Wikipedia reports what is, not what some editors wish it were."

Which editor is wishing for the United States to be a bilingual nation-state? ―Howard • 🌽³³ 16:55, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Howard. If you are suggesting that translation for that particular field, you are indeed creating a bilingual, bicultural nation-state. Please look at how the infoboxes of many other country articles are handled—or not handled. Your above sample is imposing a certain linguistic and cultural point of view, and "POV" in the negative Wikipedia sense. Why you don't realize this is beyond me. Mason.Jones (talk) 17:26, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I am merely trying to align the information inside the US country infobox with the rules of its template documentation. This is merely a question of what exactly the infobox counts as a "de facto" language, which it does not specify if you read the documentation.

As I have noted above, multiple sources state that Spanish is indeed the second de facto language of the United States, which may (or may not) necessitate its inclusion in the infobox. I am only citing what the sources already say.

Therefore, I simply wish to know two things:

1. Is there unambiguous Wikipedia consensus that explicitly defines what is meant by "de facto language(s)" in the context of country info-boxes?

2. If there is no policy, do reliable sources consider Spanish to be a "de facto" national language of the United States?

If no to the former, then we could move this discussion elsewhere and define it ourselves. However, if we cannot form any consensus, then we have to rely on what reliable sources consider of the status of Spanish in the United States. According to my brief overview of the topic, multiple sources do consider Spanish to be a "de facto" national language of the United States. However, if you have sources which are contrary to this designation, then please share them with me.

Suppose we go by your rules and say that an infobox should only contain the translated names of the official languages (excluding vernacular and regionally recognized languages) of that country, as in Sweden and Canada, like you mentioned.

These countries' infoboxes would then not fit the bill:

• Eritrea's infobox only includes Tigrinya as the native name of the country, despite it not being the official language of the country.
• Algeria's infobox only includes the Arabic name despite Tamazight also being an official language of the country.
• Jamaica's, Grenada's, Belize's infobox contains the name in their respective creoles despite them not being an official language.
• Bolivia's infobox doesn't contain all 36 of its official languages.
• Burkina Faso's infobox doesn't contain its name in Bissa, despite it being an official language.
• The Danish Realm's infobox contains Faroese and Greenlandic despite the fact they are merely regional languages and Danish is the only official language.
• Djibouti's infobox contains Somali and Afar, despite those not even being official languages.
• Guinea's infobox contains Pular and Eastern Maninkakan despite only French being the official language.
• Guinea-Bissau's infobox contains Fula and Mandinka despite only Portuguese being the official language.
• Israel's infobox contains Arabic despite only Hebrew being the sole official language.
• Latvia's infobox contains Latgalian and Livonian, despite Latvian being the sole official language.
• Luxembourg's infobox contains French and German despite Luxembourgish being the national language.
• Malawi's infobox contains Chichewa and Chitumbuka despite English being the sole official language.
• Mali has thirteen official languages but only contains five of them in the infobox.
• Mexico doesn't have an official language, but its name in Spanish is included in the infobox.
• Monaco's infobox contains Monagesque, which is not an official language of the country.
• Namibia's infobox contains eight languages, despite only English being the official language of the country.
• New Zealand's infobox does not contain a SignWritten name of the country in New Zealand Sign Language.
• Nigeria's infobox contains three languages, despite English being the sole official language.
• Norway's infobox contains Kven, not an official language.
• Papua New Guinea's infobox does not contain a PNG Sign Language translation of the name of the country.
• Peru's infobox, interestingly enough, contains "co-official" names for the country, in Quechua and Aymara which aren't the official language.
• Saint Lucia's infobox contains Saint Lucian Creole, which is not an official language.
• Slovenia's infobox contains Italian and Hungarian, which are not official languages.
• South Africa's infobox does not contain South African Sign Language.
• Spain's infobox contains names in 7 other languages which are not Spanish, the country's official language.
• Switzerland's infobox contains its name in Latin, which is not an official language of Switzerland.
• Uganda's infobox contains a dropdown with three other non-official languages.
• Uruguay's infobox does not contain Uruguayan Sign Language, an official language of the country.
• Yemen's infobox contains an informal Arabic name for the country alongside the official name.
• Zimbabwe's infobox doesn't contain any translated names despite having 16 official languages.

I would like for you to go through each and every infobox for every country and explain to me what is the consensus on which translated names are supposed to appear on the top. I guarantee you, there is an exception with any rule you come up with. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 20:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Howard — First of all, academic books declaring Spanish to be "the second de facto language" are as reliable for Wikipedia as academic publications stating that the U.S. is not a democracy or is a historical fraud. Actually, Switzerland's name in Latin is official, as this is its historical name going back to its medieval founding as a confederation. There really is a reason for each and every WP infobox format you list. While I do think there might be room to expand "Languages" in the infobox, I find your sample above quite misguided. You're ready to declare Spanish "de facto" when the 13.2% Spanish figure comes from a survey (not from a census), when these 41 million people are not monolingual Spanish speakers but often speak English fluently and receive their education in English. English is the de facto language of the United States. Your sample infobox also opens a can of worms for every state: Why shouldn't North Carolina also appear as "Carolina del Norte" or, for equal inclusiveness, "Philadelphia" followed by "Filadelfia"? This is how absurd your infobox is as a concept.

This space isn't a forum, so I will go no further except to say that I oppose your "project" in most aspects. Other editors can weigh in. Mason.Jones (talk) 21:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

First of all, any contestable claim on Wikipedia requires a reliable source. The ones I have provided are from reliable academic publications. You have so far not provided a single reliable source to back up your position, so you are the one who currently has a burden of proof to back up your claim that Spanish is not a de facto second language of the United States.

I'm not the one declaring Spanish a "de facto" based on my own assumptions of what a "de facto" language ought to be, unlike you. I have consulted the relevant sources, and according to WP:V, that is what is necessary. In addition, I don't see why we can't open a proverbial "can of worms" for every state that deserves it. Alaska has six languages in the infobox, what's one more?

Again, you still have to yet to provide any kind of clear standard for what should and should not be included in a language section of the infobox that is based on any specified precedent of the template's use. If you actually consulted the country infoboxes of every country, you would see the alarming contradictions in how they are presented. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 17:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

As it appears this discussion has become difficult, I have requested a third opinion at WP:3O. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 17:41, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

3O Response: Please note that I have declined a request for a third opinion relating to this dispute on the grounds that there are already more than two involved editors. In almost all cases WP:3O is for cases where a literal third opinion is needed. Please consider other forms of dispute resolution if necessary. DonIago (talk) 18:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC) Struck so a 3O can be offered per below. DonIago (talk) 20:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

@Howard: Alaska, South Dakota, Hawaii, and Puerto Rico have bilingual/multilingual infobox banners in Wikipedia because their state or territorial legislature voted to declare those languages official languages. That is the "precedent". New Orleans had a French name in the 18th century, and Saint Augustine a Spanish name in the 16th, 17th, and 18th, so both are also treated differently. I can see no justification for your bilingual banner "Estados Unidos de América", and I don't think you have convinced other editors. Finally, I am under no obligation to continue a long-winded debate with you on any Talk page. This is my last comment. Mason.Jones (talk) 22:03, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Louisiana creole is by no means an official language of Louisiana, but its still listed. Regardless, I’ll give up this stupid conversation considering that you have consistently made bad and uncited claims. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 07:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Third opinion request

A protracted dispute has occurred between me and @Mason.Jones: specifically. I have created this subsection specifically to facilitate a third opinion request. The dispute between me and Mason is (from my perspective) as follows: I initially started this section to ask about the viability of placing the Spanish-language name of the United States in the infobox, in addition I have pointed out that the native_name parameter of the infobox template allows for either "official" or "de facto" languages of the country. After reviewing some sources, I have discovered that Spanish is considered by many to be a de facto language of the United States, which I have cited. Mason has accused me of pushing a particular POV of promoting a "bilingual, bicultural United States" and has denied my sources on his own assumptions of what a de facto language "should" be, without citing any sources, reliable or otherwise. After reviewing the infoboxes of most (if not all) sovereign states, I have discovered that there is inconsistency in which native names are included and which aren't, however Mason has denied any irregularity. Therefore I would ask the provider of the third opinion to address these points of dispute between me and Mason specifically:

• Are my sources unreliable enough that they do not support my claim that Spanish is a "de facto" second language of the United States?
• Have I been promoting a particular POV of a "bilingual, bicultural United States"?
• Is there a specified precedent on Wikipedia for which names of a country are to appear in its infobox?

―Howard • 🌽³³ 18:57, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

You've already received several opinions and those are more-or-less opposed. I didn't see any supports. I would have opposed earlier, except that a consensus seems to have already been formed, and, each article being its own little fiefdom to a large extent, that is that. It's not necessary to refute the logic of your position, unless you assert that a gross violation of Wikipedia's core policies has taken place. I would add that your proposal misuses the "native-name" infobox field, Spanish never having been that for this country, as well as that misuse giving greatly undue prominence to something that is a regional phenomenon. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:00, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

“It’s not necessary to refute the logic of your position.”

Wiikipedia is not a democracy, you have to provide an actual refutation of my point even if the majority are against me.

“your proposal misuses the "native-name" infobox field, “

If you read the template infobox country, you would see that it states that the native_name parameter should contain the name “in its official/defacto language(s)”. Again, I have provided multiple sources that it is a de facto language of the United States, and this must be addressed before I back down from my position. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 08:01, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

P.S. There is a formal third opinion venue for dispute resolution, but that is explicitly for resolving "a content or sourcing disagreement between two editors." Dhtwiki (talk) 23:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

My dispute with Mason is not merely over the inclusion of Spanish in the infobox, but over his specific claims which are specified in the bullet points. ―Howard • 🌽³³ 07:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Regardless, however, it appears that there is a pretty clear consensus regarding this. TheBritinator (talk) 14:09, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sources contradict a removed line

This line was removed from the article because after checking for sources, they appeared to contradict this framing as something "provided" to students. WP:RS instead framed US student loans as a problem, a "crisis", and noted that it disproportionately affected poor and minority students: "Large amounts of federal financial aid are provided to students in the form of grants and loans."^{(30 May 2024)}

Sources:

• https://abcnews.go.com/US/attn-abc-news-uss-student-debt-crisis/story?id=55332323
• https://www.npr.org/2023/07/03/1185864097/stirred-a-debate-over-the-government-s-role-in-helping-pay-for-higher-education
• https://thehill.com/changing-america/enrichment/education/599377-how-student-loan-debt-became-a-crisis/
• https://www.washingtonpost.com/made-by-history/2022/12/29/history-student-loan-debt/
• https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/watch-live-how-student-loan-debt-disproportionately-hurts-black-borrowers
• https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/2016/1019/Average-student-loan-debt-increases-again
• https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/article286697855.html
• https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/16/economy/student-debt-gallup-poll/index.html
• https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/aug/25/student-loan-crisis-awaits-new-generation-despite-/ (very right-leaning source)
• https://www.al.com/reckon/2023/07/other-countries-arent-drowning-in-student-debt.html
• https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/08/26/your-money/student-loan-forgiveness-debt.html
• https://cbs12.com/news/nation-world/is-student-loan-debt-a-national-crisis-nearly-half-of-borrowers-think-so-college-expenses-university-finances-money-education-earnings-bankrate-survey
• https://www.bbc.com/news/business-67546893
• https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29730227
• https://www.msnbc.com/know-your-value/aauw-s-kim-churches-student-debt-crisis-women-s-issue-n1026131

Regards, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 21:24, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Incomplete/biased starting section

I believe that the starting section as it stands is WP:Biased. As it stands, the article does not touch up on income inequality, accusations of racism, or topics that were covered in previous revisions, meaning the section on America's wealth at the present is entirely focused on "positive" aspects. I believe it is entirely possible to mention wealth disparity and other common criticisms of America while keeping it in summary. At the moment I don't know how to incorporate accusations of racism into the summary, but I believe accusations of wealth inequality absolutely should be mentioned, especially considering how this section deals with information about the wealth of the United States and wealth inequality is a commonly discussed topic when regarding wealth in the United States.

For example:
"One of the world's most developed countries, the United States has had the largest nominal GDP since about 1890 and accounted for 15% of the global economy in 2023. It possesses by far the largest amount of wealth of any country and has the highest disposable household income per capita among OECD countries, but has been criticized for wealth inequality. The U.S. ranks among the world's highest in economic competitiveness, productivity, innovation, human rights, and higher education. Its hard power and cultural influence have a global reach. The U.S. is a founding member of the World Bank, IMF, Organization of American States, NATO, and World Health Organization, as well as a permanent member of the UN Security Council."

Kalivyah (talk) 20:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this. "Ranks among the world's highest in human rights" is the main one that I have a problem with, it is literally just an opinion, you can't quantify or rank "human rights," and I feel like someone, for instance, in Iraq might disagree with that claim. I'll remove that section of the list in the paragraph. I'd be willing to change more stuff in the intro if you can provide alternative wordings for parts you consider biased. Hexifi (talk) 04:36, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it should be changed, but this is probably a Wikipedia-spanning RFC issue, rather than one exclusive to the U.S. Wrote more on that below, @Hexifi:. KlayCax (talk) 17:26, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I've added a criticism section, feel free to summarise the articles linked to in the body and then summarise that in a sentence in the lede Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:26, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

In my view, another article needs to be created on the topic of economic imperialism which discusses the use of MNCs and debt trappage Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Economic imperialism is discussed in the articles for Neocolonialism, theories of imperialism, and unequal exchange, but all of those sections only really cover the basics, and don't cover many specific examples, so I think there is room for an article all to itself. This definitely isn't the place to continue this conversation, so I would recommend you create a page in draftspace for economic imperialism. Hexifi (talk) 16:18, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I’ve got too much on my to do list, I can’t really devote much time to this now. In a couple months maybe Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:24, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

It would need to be on the practice of economic imperialism, not theory Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:27, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

@Kalivyah -- I've moved your new topic to the end of the Talk page. (New topics never precede old topics, and few regular editors would look for them there.) This particular topic has been addressed multiple times. Highlights: Who determines what a country's grievous sins are, and what are they? Jim Crow? Racism, inequality, colonialism compared to Switzerland—or Germany, France, "other wealthy nations"? The introductions of country articles don't tend to dwell on national flaws and bad history, nor do they seek to right centuries of wrongs (wrongs discussed later on, in the "History" section). @Hexifi -- You will have to be judicious with any future cuts, deletions, or additions or, as previously, they will be reverted. Propose first, don't hijack the lede, and be wary of "righting wrongs" in the introduction. We've all been here before, as this is Wikipedia's most widely read country article. Mason.Jones (talk) 16:28, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Im aware of the trend to avoid a country's previous wrongs in an introduction, which is why I avoided mentioning the past wrongs in the introduction and only changed the opinionated part. I apologize if the language in my previous reply implied I would be willing to "right wrongs" as you put it. What I meant to say was that if there were any parts like the "world leader in human rights" that were purely opinions or biased I would like those to be brought to my attention, or preferably someone else's attention, as I will likely not be editing this article from here on out. Reading the reply now, it appears you may be under the misconception that I was the one who added the sentence about criticism for wealth inequality, this is not true. The only edits I've made relevant to this discussion is removing the part about being a ranked one of the highest in human rights, as it clearly violates policy. Hexifi (talk) 17:10, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

@Hexifi -- I read your words "willing to change more stuff", and some alarm bells went off. Apologies if I've misunderstood. Mason.Jones (talk) 18:38, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Kalivyah. Wikipedia unfortunately tends to have different WP:NPOV standards for U.S. articles, where nationalist editors tend to misrepresent WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS in order to justify pro-colonial content. Be careful; administrators sometimes lash out at editors who complain about bias.  — Freoh 11:01, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Not what we are looking for...WP:STRUCTURE "Segregation of text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself, may result in an unencyclopedic structure..." WP:CSECTION " Sections within an article dedicated to negative criticisms are normally also discouraged. " .....See Canada for how this is done..... As in each section highlights something. Moxy🍁 16:30, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I will once again move this discussion to the end of the Talk page. Talk pages progress in chronological order, and this one is no exception. This newest topic should not precede a chronologically ordered list. Mason.Jones (talk) 16:49, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Wrote a summary for our new editors WP:COUNTRYSECTIONS at the project essay. Moxy🍁 16:59, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

References

Human rights in lead

Map of V-Dem Electoral Democracy Index for 2023

  0.900–1.000

  0.800–0.899

  0.700–0.799

  0.600–0.699

  0.500–0.599

  0.400–0.499

  0.300–0.399

  0.200–0.299

  0.100–0.199

  0.000–0.099

  No data

Should we include human rights at all in the lead of countries? Since the mid-2010s, when it wasn't present on the vast majority of pages outside of historical context, it has gradually expanded to almost every national page in a present tense, including Iran, China, Russia, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Laos, and many others. V-DEM's electoral index seems to be the most frequently cited.

Is this right? Or is this far too subjective? I've always been a skeptic of this gradual creep. But this is probably the right time to address it.

At least by the book, the United States does rank among the highest among the world in human rights, at least according to the V-DEM Electoral Democracy Index for 2023.

On the other hand, should we be using these indexes at all? KlayCax (talk) 17:24, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Tagging @Moxy:, @Freoh:, @Mason.Jones:., @Hexifi:, @Alexanderkowal:, @Kalivyah:. KlayCax (talk) 17:25, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

This particular index is about democratic governance, not human rights, and it is wrong to conflate the two, however putting it in the lede like Hexifi said is fine Alexanderkowal (talk) 17:42, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

The U.S. ranks similarly on their other indices. But this is the only one with a Wikipedia infograph now that the coding broke for charts on here. KlayCax (talk) 17:54, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

If those indexes are on human rights and are well respected in academia then having a sentence saying,

in human rights indexes, the US often ranks very high

but more sophisticated Alexanderkowal (talk) 17:59, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Can we even rank human rights, though? At least in a way that meets WP: NPOV? There's assumptions and bias that inherently go along with it. KlayCax (talk) 18:01, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

yeah it's tough, that's why I said only if they are a subject of sustained criticism (or praise lol) Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:08, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there is a way to numerically rank a concept like human rights that doesn't involve some inherent bias. Like what even goes into it, should it include actions in foreign countries, or only domestic, if so, why? Should you get more points for women's rights or minority right's, or equal, if so, why? These are all questions that get to the heart of a person's worldview, and they're questions that are impossible to answer without being opinionated, I.E. bias. If anyone wants to include an attributed opinion like "According to X index, the United states is Y in Human rights" that would probably be fine, but this does raise some interesting questions. Hexifi (talk) 18:10, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

"human rights" is a very different thing to "electoral democracy" if you wish to list electoral democracy among the things it is highest in, it would arguably fit, but human rights encompasses so much more than just democracy. While I do think it would still be opinionated if you put "highest in electoral democracy" it could be argued that the opinion in question is from a expert source, though it should still be attributed.

TL;DR "one of the highest in human rights" is too broad and opinionated, but if you wanted to put a sentence like "in the V-DEM electoral index, it is one of the highest" that would arguably be fine. Hexifi (talk) 17:37, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I have my own criticisms about these type of indexes, but that is a very different discussion, for now, I'll just say that that we shouldn't have "Ranks highest in human rights" Hexifi (talk) 17:46, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

V-DEM states that the United States meets this. In their liberal democracy index, the nation ranks higher than Canada and many other nations in Western Europe, so I don't think "your own criticisms" is meaningless here.

There should probably be a (Wikipedia-wide) consensus on when "human rights" belongs on pages. Right now, it's heavily inconsistent. @Hexifi:. KlayCax (talk) 17:52, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

@Hexifi. I agree that human rights goes well beyond democracy ("electoral" or any other). The original claim, one of the highest, does seem too broad and opinionated.

@KlayCax: The indexes are problematical. I'd also prefer to avoid any blanket statement based on several indexes using different criteria and providing disparate numerical rankings. Mason.Jones (talk) 17:54, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

We should probably call a RFC on human rights being on pages in general, @Mason.Jones:. Since this is clearly something that goes far beyond the U.S. (On a Wikiproject page. Not this one.)

V-DEM claims that the U.S. is one of the highest. But, as you stated, I don't like these indices in general. KlayCax (talk) 18:00, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

@KlayCax. Some countries—often small, neutral nations— consistently rank high in all measures of human rights. They even play an activist role, so a global RfC like that wouldn't go far. The U.S., a huge military superpower with many secrets, vast intelligence agencies, and controversies (Guantánamo alone) isn't going to attain a "highest" score across all aspects of human rights. To make a bold claim based on a grab bag of U.S. rankings, none of them really stellar if I read them correctly, seems questionable. This isn't GDP, worker productivity, or soft power, and I think it should be withdrawn. Mason.Jones (talk) 19:02, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't have a strong opinion, however I think putting the index in the lede is unnecessary, if a government has a poor human rights record and receives criticism for it then I think just state that. To clarify, I don't think the index is useful for the reader when the values are in isolation, they are used comparatively Alexanderkowal (talk) 17:39, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Individual statistics should not be in the lead WP: COUNTRYLEAD. That said.... Saying that the country has good humans rights record is easily academically sourced if need be.Moxy🍁 22:36, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

The issue here is that "Good humans rights record" is an inherently subjective statement, to borrow something I've said earlier in the topic, what even goes into it, should it include actions in foreign countries, or only domestic, if so, why? Should you get more points for women's rights or minority right's, or equal, if so, why? These are all questions that get to the heart of a person's worldview, and they're questions that are impossible to answer without the answer being an opinion. Saying that "this country has a good human rights record" should be allowed because you can find an academic source that agrees with it is like saying "this country is great" should be allowed because you can find an academic source that agrees with it, they are opinions. As I've mentioned previously, you can put academic opinions in an article, but they need to be attributed, I.E. "according to X person/index this country is Y on human rights," even then they probably shouldn't be in the lede.

TL;DR "This country has a good human rights record" is an opinion, meaning that it must be attributed, and probably shouldn't be in the lede. Hexifi (talk) 22:58, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Disagree if we can find academic publications that state this....it is our job to educate our readers. That said the statement shouldn't be based on one index.... but an academic evaluation of assessments. The International Journal of Human Rights is prominently used. But I tell my students to start their research here. Moxy🍁 23:06, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

The issue that I'm getting at is that even if The International Journal of Human Rights describes the country as good on human rights, how they determine that is subjective and opinionated. Human rights are not quantifiable in the same way as something like GDP is, any statement about human rights by any authority necessarily entails the values and beliefs of that authority, meaning that it cannot be a fact, but merely an interpretation of existing facts, and as such cannot be stated as an objective fact within the article, at best it can be stated as an expert opinion, meaning that "According to the The International Journal of Human Rights, the United States has a good track-record on human rights" would be valid, but just "the United States has a good track-record on human rights" wouldn't be. Hexifi (talk) 00:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Every contentious topic is subjective and opinionated..... This is why we lead our readers to academic sources so they can learn more and make informed decisions. Our job is not to omite information because Wikipedia editors don't understand or because it gives a bad taste in someone's mouth...... We are simply here to regurgitate what academic sources say. Not our place to evaluate what academics have to say.... You simply here to State the facts.Moxy🍁 00:21, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

The statement that "The United States has a good record on human rights" is purely ideological, it is not describing any real thing about the history or reality of the united states, it is describing a framework to view those real things through. We can imagine two people who hold completely opposing views on whether that statement is correct, but don't at all disagree about any of the facts about the United States history or present, they just have different frameworks, different ideologies, they view those facts through. Wikipedia can describe the facts in question, it can describe the ideologies in question, and it can say which ideology is favored by academics, but it cannot say that one ideology is correct and another wrong. Hexifi (talk) 00:39, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

This is strictly your opinion.... From my point of view there's a whole academic discipline devoted to this topic with many publications that have been quantified by many academics. Moxy🍁 00:42, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Maybe an analogy would help illustrate what I am trying to say. Lets imagine an evolutionary biologist who says "Humans are the most important species to every exist." That statement, could be academic consensus, every scientist in the world could say yeah to that, but that doesn't mean it should be said on a Wikipedia article, because its not a statement about the biological facts of humans, its a statement about how scientists interpret the biological realities of humans, and Wikipedia articles, shouldn't value certain interpretations over others, if it wanted too, a Wikipedia article could say "academic consensus says that humans are the most important species to every exist." That would be presenting one of many world-views, rather than telling the reader which world-view is correct. Hexifi (talk) 00:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Going to have a long way to go to get rid of human Rights everywhere in the encyclopedia. Wondering if all those with an MA in human rights should just give up and wash cars for a living. Moxy🍁 00:55, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

This is a blatant misinterpretation of what I'm saying. Let's walk through this step by step.

Every country has done good and bad things, this cannot be argued.

Different educated people can value those good and bad things differently, this is an ideology, this also cannot be argued.

Therefore, looking at the entire history of a country and assigning a value of their overall good or badness will depend on the persons ideology.

Therefore, it shouldn't be presented in a Wikipedia article as a fact.

Ok, now go back and replace "good" with "positive human rights" and "Bad" with "Negative human rights." Hexifi (talk) 01:14, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Imagine a fictional country called ghmeristan, that, in its entire existence has only done two things, it gave women the right to vote, and it did a whole bunch of war crimes in the neighboring country. What is their record on human rights, is it good, medium, bad, that will depend on how you weigh those things, it will depend on your ideology. If a Wikipedia article said "ghmeristan has a good human rights record" it would be treating an ideology as fact, it would be bias, it shouldn't be allowed. Hexifi (talk) 02:07, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

It's significant that the U.S. rates highly in democracy and human rights and is comparable to other liberal democracies, which by definition rank highly in democracy and human rights. Although there is subjectivity in the indices, there is broad agreement on the broad rankings.

Positive might be better than good, because there are some problems with democracy and human rights in democracies, especially with how little they respect them in countries over which they have influence. TFD (talk) 02:18, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

The point that I have reiterated many times now in this topic is that "the United States rates highly in human rights" is an opinion. It is undeniable that the United States has done bad things in the past, and does bad things now, so determining the overall ranking in human rights, depends on how you weigh those things, which is an opinion, and should not be presented as fact.

To say this again, I would be fine with it if it was attributed, saying "according to X the United States rates highly in human rights" because that would present it as the interpretation of X, which it is.

On Wikipedia, we shouldn't be telling the reader how to interpret facts, we should only tell them facts, and let them form their own interpretations of those facts. Hexifi (talk) 02:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Conclusions that have consensus support in reliable sources are usually treated as facts for brevity and to avoid false equivalency. For example, we might report company earnings as facts, but the primary source is the company itself with an auditor's "opinion." TFD (talk) 02:58, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

The thing in question is not a conclusion, it is an interpretation. It is possible to have two people who completely agree on every fact about the United States, but disagree on whether it has a good human rights record or not. The issue with your analogy is that a company earning is a fact, the only thing in question there is whether those facts are accurate. In the case of the United States, the two people completely agree on the facts. A better analogy would be if someone took those company statistics and said "this is a good company" in the Wikipedia article, because that is an interpretation of the facts of the company earnings, two people can agree on the earnings of a company, and completely disagree on if it's good or not, and as such "this is a good company" wouldn't make it into a Wikipedia article, and even then goodness of a company is even less subjective than human rights, because company success only really encompasses a few variables, while we can imagine thousands of variables that determine if a country has good human rights. Hexifi (talk) 03:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

To directly quote Wikipedia policy "For instance, the article on Shakespeare should note that he is widely considered one of the greatest authors in the English language by both scholars and the general public. It should not, however, state that Shakespeare is the greatest author in the English language." An article on the United States could say it is considered to have a good record on human rights, but cannot say that it has a good record on human rights. Hexifi (talk) 03:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

At this point, I'm not particularly interested in reiterated the same stuff for the hundredth time, so unless someone has a well thought-out argument for how the level of human rights in a country is an objective fact, or how the Wikipedia policy for describing opinions and reputations shouldn't apply to describing this specific opinion, I will be done with this topic. Hexifi (talk) 04:05, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 June 2024

Add most likely before the exceeding 334 million. Legendarycool (talk) 06:41, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: no reason given for the proposed change. M.Bitton (talk) 12:03, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Foreign relations: developing countries

I would like to add these sentences to the end of the section that refer to the US' relations with developing countries.

The U.S. is the biggest donor of development aid worldwide. Unrelatedly it has been argued extensively that US foreign policy is directed by commercial interest, with some stipulating the use of multinational corporations and state capture in developing countries amounts to neocolonialism.

This content is extremely relevant to the section, it outlines the US' relations with approximately 50 countries. One sentence is positive, one is negative. They are both heavily cited and are removed from ideology. The sweeping statement about US foreign policy being directed by commercial interest is well cited, however I can provide more, and gives context to the next clause.

Please let me know what you think, and how this can be improved, although I hope we can agree the premise is appropriate. Alexanderkowal (talk) 17:10, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Citations to support the statement about commercial interest

• [1]: Throughout most of American history, commercia interests have played a central role in foreign policy
• [2] a book on Economic interest and United States foreign policy
• [3]: I present evidence that economic interests in their home states were closely related to senators' voting patterns on foreign policy issues. These patterns hold across economic and security issues.
• [4] this book goes into depth about this, chapter 5 is The American Empire and the U.S. economy
• [5] this book also discusses it referring to the guiding hand of economic interest

Alexanderkowal (talk) 17:32, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

With obvious manipulation, you juxtapose high amounts of U.S. developmental aid in the global South (source: OECD) with insinuations that such aid has cynically imperialistic and neo-colonialist objectives (your sources: Afrocentric "anti-colonialist" texts). You are inserting sweeping ideological polemics into a very general section of a country article, rather than incorporating it into a sub-article specifically devoted to imperialism, colonialism, or developing nations. The syntax is convoluted; the content is egregiously POV. Mason.Jones (talk) 17:58, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

This is really pathetic, either WP:Assume good faith or I won't engage with you. Articles need to have input from multiple POVs in order to reach WP:NPOV and this is one of those. I've worded it to leave room for contest, and it is not ideological at all. Please take a breather and come back to this later with a clearer mind. I'm not fond of the threats on my talk page Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I discerned through your accusations and drivel a valid point, so I've put "unrelatedly" at the start of the sentence Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't assume good faith after seeing your past edits (and history of warnings), and this contribution is similarly egregious. Others here will decide if it meets WP criteria. For the record, I'm a definite "no ". Mason.Jones (talk) 18:29, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I haven't had a history of warnings? I think you're being utterly ridiculous, either be constructive or don't engage, otherwise you are WP:Not here Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:32, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

RfC: foreign relations with developing countries

On whether to include these two sentences at the end of the Foreign relations section about the US' relations with developing countries:

The U.S. is the biggest donor of development aid worldwide. Unrelatedly it has been argued extensively that US foreign policy is directed by commercial interest, with some stipulating that the use of multinational corporations and state capture in developing countries amounts to neocolonialism.

Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:08, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• Support The proposal is balanced with one positive sentence, one negative, and its inclusion of a non-US POV is vital for this page to adhere to WP:NPOV. The second sentence is extremely well cited, the syntax logical, and the wording leaves it open to challenge from the reader.

Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:13, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

this is a very serious issue in contemporary Africa, evidenced by the suspected US backed coup in the DRC a few weeks ago [6] [7] [8] Alexanderkowal (talk) 15:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. A theoretical word salad tacked onto the end of a general summation of current U.S. foreign policy (not its alleged selfish underpinnings). This belongs in a sub-article, along with pedantic terms like "state capture". The word "unrelatedly" is awkward and disingenuous, as the second sentence is very "related" to the first. The 12 sources arrayed in battle formation look calculated. An ideological diatribe.

Mason.Jones (talk) 15:37, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Complete and utter nonsense, if you try to bully any more editors I’ll report you. Act constructively or don’t act at all, otherwise you are WP:Not here Alexanderkowal (talk) 15:45, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

You have a history of WP:Personal attacks and you clearly haven’t learnt from your warnings Alexanderkowal (talk) 15:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I will retract one word: "pedantic" should read "esoteric." Otherwise: as it reads.

Mason.Jones (talk) 16:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I genuinely don’t think any of your points are valid, they suffer immensely from a tunnel vision POV which you are locked in. Your defamatory remarks towards are disgraceful. I have always edited in good faith, despite not always being familiar with policy, and this is another example, people can look on my talk page and the above exchange if they want to see more of your aggressive vitriol. Your conduct has no place on Wikipedia. Alexanderkowal (talk) 17:24, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

"State capture" is not esoteric, it is pagelinked to and intuitive. Maybe you could suggest a better word than unrelatedly that creates distance between the two sentences? Battle formation, really, this is childish, the sources back up both clauses so obv there are lots. There is no ideology involved in this at all, and if there is I'd be curious to hear it. A completely one sided account with no mention of the actual content. Alexanderkowal (talk) 17:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Alexanderkowal: The text is polemical deflection, and reads like it. I won't add anything further. Mason.Jones (talk) 17:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I genuinely don't understand what that means. It has been carefully worded to ensure the reader can challenge it, which I expect most to naturally. It is not polemical, you just receive it that way because you love your country and can't bear to see anything negative about it. Regardless, this is a wikipedia, and sentiment is not involved in any of wikipedia's policies that I know of. Whilst that sentence is negative, it is at the end of the day constructive criticism, not insinuating anything about the US' nature but its actions. You have acted extremely improperly and I'm amazed you haven't apologised yet. Alexanderkowal (talk) 18:05, 4 June 2024 (UTC)