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FIFA Club World Cup teams in contention

Last year, there was a discussion here about whether or not to include a list of teams in contention for the FIFA Club World Cup. See here. It was decided that they were not needed.

However, someone has added such a list to the 2025 FIFA Club World Cup, but via the new 4-year ranking. There is a lengthy discussion as well.

So, are these rankings tables needed? Also, if they are kept, does pruning the tables to just teams in contention without a source fall under WP:CALC or is it WP:OR? It seems to me that calculating who is or isn't in contention is more nuanced than just basic math, and requires knowledge about how various tournaments work. See my example of Penarol here. So I think this should still have a source.

Just to be clear, I'm not really heavily for or against listing teams in contention. But if it's done, it should be done in a limited fashion (because obviously adding these tables at the beginning of 4-year cycle, for example, would be bad, because there could literally be thousands of teams in contention). And I think it needs to be properly sourced, which I don't think it is right now. I also think, giving incomplete information is bad because it leads to a half-baked article. So if we're going to list teams in contention via the 4-year ranking, we should also list the teams who may qualify by winning a competition, since the rankings tables themselves are dependent on that information. Bmf 051 (talk) 22:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

The situations are not the same. The previous discussion (which went for only 14 hours by the way) was someone posting bullet points of all 108 countries who might qualify (of a total of 7 who did). That is indeed overkill, and I was happy it was removed. It was easy at the time to simply click on the links to the different confederations if you wanted to see who was still in contention. This is a different case, as it is not a single competition feeding into the calculations, it is (for the remaining confederation, CONMEBOL) over four competitions. The rankings for CONMEBOL are shown at the FIFA website for all four years in a single table, so there is a primary source. That FIFA website shows the current leaders under the four-year ranking, and those 2 teams I have put into a note in the main table, as that is also clearly not WP:OR. That approach is consistent with how the notes have been displayed for all other confederations before they were finalised. At one point in this article, the table showed all of the results, so dozens and dozens of teams, and that also is not WP:OR. However, showing dozens of teams that in fact were not in contention was also misleading so that subset was removed. The criteria on the FIFA website clearly list the points available (3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw, 3 points for progress to each stage of the competition), so that is not WP:OR. The maximum number of points available to a team without their winning the 2024 Copa Libertadores is easily calculated: After round 3 of the group stage, it is 3 wins in the group stage, 2 wins in the round of 16, 2 wins in the quarter-finals, 2 wins in the semi-finals, draw in the final (PSO loss). Nine wins and one draw = 28 points, and progressing 4 more rounds to the final = 12 points, so total = 40 points. That to me is WP:CALC. If one of the three teams - that have already won one the three previous editions of the Copa Libertadores - wins this year, then a third team will qualify through the four-year ranking method. That process is sourced from the FIFA Website. Olimpia currently sit on 57 points, third in these rankings, so any team with less than 17 points cannot qualify by this method (57-17=40). That to me is again WP:CALC. So, overall, removing the teams that cannot qualify I would clearly consider to be WP:CALC rather than WP:OR. What would be better, obviously, is if there is also a secondary source showing the teams still in contention. As a side issue, it is not going to be a permanent feature of the FIFA Club World Cup article, as it will decrease through time as did the tables for the other confederations (and disappear entirely in November 2024). Matilda Maniac (talk) 01:34, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, my point about WP:CALC not being applicable is not that this doesn't involve routine calculations. Of course it does. It's that it involves more than just routine calculations (i.e. knowledge of how the various tournaments are structured, how teams have been drawn, etc.) That is what makes it OR. Specifically, it's WP:SYNTH. I don't think it is controversial to require a source that explicitly states the conclusion that is being made. Bmf 051 (talk) 10:10, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

https://espndeportes.espn.com/futbol/mundial-clubes/nota/_/id/13319277/las-posibilidades-que-tiene-nacional-de-clasificar-al-mundial-de-clubes-2025

Translated excerpt

The maximum that can be added in a single edition of the Cup is 52 points in this hypothetical case: being runner-up by winning all the games and tying the final, this would be 37 points (twelve wins and one draw), to which would be added three to participate in the group stage and twelve to advance in the following rounds (to the round of 16, to the quarterfinals, to the semis and to the final).

This is what I consider to be a credible source to confirm the calculation. Miria~01 (talk) 11:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Using this as the only source for the information that is presented at 2025 FIFA Club World Cup would be WP:SYNTH. It doesn't explicitly say which teams are "in contention" beyond National and a few others. To make a conclusion based on this would be OR. Bmf 051 (talk) 12:04, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

CONMEBOL Libertadores draw shapes the race for the FIFA Club World Cup 2025 - FIFA.com,, published 19 mar 2024

The FIFA article indicates exactly which clubs are in contention through the 4-year ranking, before the Group stage started. Miria~01 (talk) 12:34, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

This is a great source, but where does it explicitly say what the current teams in contention are? If instead of a current ranking table, that section of the article merely contained a summary of what this source says (i.e. a list of teams that are still in contention as of the start of the group stage, perhaps including the rankings at that time from a source showing that) then this would be a perfectly good source for that. It would be outdated, but it would be backed by sources. Bmf 051 (talk) 13:03, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

But that's what WP:CALC is intended for.

What you explicitly ask for is a dynamic source like this FIFA Club World Cup 2025™ Confederations ranking that is updated after each game day with the information addition of eliminated clubs by the 4-year ranking . Or rather, there should always be news sources that confirm that a team no longer has a chance through the ranking after each match day. There are numerous of these news, but that would be a WP:OVERCITE, as there is no point in confirming an easy calculation again and again. These sources are more than sufficient for WP:CALC:

• FIFA Club World Cup 2025™ Confederations ranking - FIFA.com
• CONMEBOL Libertadores draw shapes the race for the FIFA Club World Cup 2025 - FIFA.com
• Las posibilidades que tiene Nacional de clasificar al Mundial de Clubes 2025 - ESPN DEPORTES

Miria~01 (talk) 13:25, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Again, determining which additional teams are eliminated and which ones are still in contention requires more than just a simple calculation, so WP:CALC is insufficient. To make that determination, you need to both do a calculation *and* have additional context. Any conclusions drawn from that context need to come from a source. If you draw a conclusion about which teams are currently in contention from the sources you've just provided, none of which explicitly say which teams are currently in contention, then that is WP:SYNTH. Requiring a single source that says explicitly what is being claimed is no where near WP:OVERCITE (which is not policy, unlike WP:OR). So I'm not sure what your point is with that. Bmf 051 (talk) 13:48, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

As far as I am concerned, if we had a source that also listed such a thing, then we should include it. If no other sources are talking about the teams "in contention" then we shouldn't either. Creating graphs and tables and the like for things isn't what we are here for. We summarise what sources say, rather than be the standard. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:45, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Yup, agree with Lee Vilenski. Kante4 (talk) 14:04, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

CONMEBOL Libertadores draw shapes the race for the FIFA Club World Cup 2025 - FIFA.com

This FIFA article indicates exactly which clubs are in contention through the 4-year ranking, before the Group stage started. Now the question is whether WP:CALC could applied here after three match days have been played and show which clubs currently in contention through the 4-year ranking. Or is it really WP:SYNTH as @Bmf051 above stated. Miria~01 (talk) 14:40, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I think there's a misunderstanding here about what WP:CALC is. Can you make a conclusion about who is in contention using just the numbers and the above article?

For example, suppose Libertad are in the semifinals and need 10 points to qualify by finishing third in the rankings out of eligible teams (assume that they cannot finish first or second). Suppose Flamengo are the only previous winner still alive. Can Libertad qualify via the rankings? It is impossible to answer that question without knowing whether Libertad and Flamengo are playing in the semifinals. If they play Flamengo, the answer is no. If they don't, the answer is yes. So this requires more information than just a basic calculation using just the numbers. WP:CALC does not apply. You're using WP:CALC to do a lot of heavy lifting here, for things that it is not intended for. Bmf 051 (talk) 21:14, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Specifically, WP:CALC mentions Routine calculations do not count as original research, provided there is consensus among editors that the results of the calculations are correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources. So this is about whether these calculations are decided by consensus as routine. My long post near the start of this section outlines my opinion on the routine nature of the calculations (points for a win, points for a draw, points for reaching the next stage) over and above what is already published on the FIFA website (the reliable source, albeit a Primary one). I would consider the comment by @Bmf 051: that Can you make a conclusion about who is in contention using just the numbers and the above article? is not the correct question to pose; it should rather be Can you make a conclusion about who is in contention using just the numbers, the format of the calculation of points, and the Primary reliable source? to which the answer is Yes. Otherwise, by analogy it means most times that the status_TEAM=E is applied to a group table in a competition - before the group stage is completed - is also WP:OR. Matilda Maniac (talk) 01:26, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

"RE: It should rather be..." This is not correct. What you are talking about is WP:SYNTH: taking a routine calculation, additional information, and other miscellany, then making your own conclusion about something that is not explicitly stated. If you could make that conclusion via only a routine calculation (and there was a consensus that the calculation was correct), that would be WP:CALC and would be fine. But that isn't the case here. Instead of trying to justify why this information doesn't need to come from a source, we would be better off spending our time looking for a source or simply representing what the sources already say.

Unfortunately, the qualification status on some pages is posted prematurely, before there is a source stating it. I think the reason people get a way with that is that often it either goes unnoticed or because the source is updated soon after the page is updated. That doesn't make this practice correct or okay. In this case with the "teams in contention" list, the lack of sources has not gone unnoticed, and the sources have not been updated after the fact, if they exist at all.

The argument you are making is a type of WP:WHATABOUTISM. Yes the rules are broken elsewhere. So what? Bmf 051 (talk) 07:23, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

To add to the discussion, an alternative format is presented at the article talk page that just captures the leading teams, which is available directly from the FIFA website (a primary source), and therefore meets WP:OR and needs no additional calculations. Perhaps this format is more acceptable if having the remaining 16 teams is not. Matilda Maniac (talk) 01:10, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I have no issues with having just the rankings listed somewhere. As long as it continues to not make unsourced conclusions, it would indeed not be WP:OR IMHO. Though a separate page may be better, with perhaps a transclusion of part of the table on the respective annual Club World Cup page, when prudent. I think FootyRankings could be a good additional source for this, in the same way that https://kassiesa.net/uefa/ is used to supplement the UEFA coefficient page. Assuming FootyRankings is reliable.

The good thing about this solution is that it can be carried over to future tournaments. As soon as the next 4-year cycle kicks off for each confederation (and the sources publish the tables), the new rankings can be updated on WP. The current solution of listing teams in contention would not allow us to do that, since nearly every club in the world would be "in contention" at the start of a 4-year cycle. Bmf 051 (talk) 07:10, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I consider Footy Rankings to be a better solution for referencing in any case, as this website is a) a Secondary source, which is preferred over a Primary one, b) has traction as it is used currently for articles for AFC and UEFA coefficients, and c) generally kept up-to-date. A fork to a separate small article with this information (similar to the UEFA coefficient) is still going to have the same issue with respect to WP:OR vs WP:CALC; it doesn't achieve anything, AND that article will shrink to zero as teams become mathematically unable to achieve qualification via this ranking route. Matilda Maniac (talk) 12:27, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

If we are literally just summarizing the content from FootyRanking, there should not be any issue with WP:OR aside from people updating it before the source is updated. We're ideally just displaying the information from the source and nothing more. Also, just as the UEFA Coefficient page doesn't "shrink to zero" when teams are eliminated, a separate small article for the Club World Cup rankings doesn't need to either, because there's nothing wrong with leaving some teams that are qualified or eliminated. We could just establish through consensus how the table should be displayed, which teams would be included, the minimum/maximum number of teams displayed for each confederation, etc. For example, for CONMEBOL currently, it might show the teams listed in green on FootyRankings and the top 12 teams in yellow (for a total of 15). But there might also be an OFC table with just the top 5. Perhaps UEFA would have 20 teams: the 12 in green, plus 8 in white. The others could have 10. This is just an example, and I just pulled numbers out of the air; I'm not saying we need to do exactly this. Bmf 051 (talk) 12:15, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

I like FootyRankings too, but it's a blog with user-generated content WP:UGC from a twitter account (https://twitter.com/FootyRankings). In my opinion it's only okay as an additional source, but never as a main source. But I'm totally on board with the idea of only showing a maximum of teams. In this regard, I would only use the number of slots that are still available for the best-ranked clubs (not yet qualified as champions) in the respective confederation. For CONMEBOL it would now be the three best placed teams (as in https://inside.fifa.com/en/fifa-rankings/mundial-de-clubes: marked in orange Currently qualified clubs). Miria~01 (talk) 13:58, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

More sources couldn't hurt, and highlighting the orange clubs from the FIFA website instead would be fine too. One negative aspect of that is that FIFA sometimes list teams who can't qualify as "currently qualified". See Jeonbuk Hyundai Motors currently, and Philadelphia Union until a day or two ago.

I can't vouch for how the information from FootyRankings is generated or who generates it or how reliable it is, but is it's content coming from Twitter or is it just a website that also happens to publish its content on Twitter? Bmf 051 (talk) 09:09, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

The latter. Matilda Maniac (talk) 10:19, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Just to illustrate what I mean: User:Bmf_051/sandbox/FIFA Club World Cup 4-year ranking. The general idea I'm thinking would be to always list some set number of clubs for each confederation (based on the number of teams that qualify, I went with 20 for UEFA, 15 for CONMEBOL, 5 for OFC, and 10 for the rest; I just picked these numbers out of the air). Then prioritize listing teams who have or may qualify over teams who cannot qualify, since that's the main point of the tables. Note that this information is entirely pulled from FootyRankings and FIFA - with the exception of Philadelphia Union and Club America's status, since they are still listed as potentially being able to qualify on FootyRankings. However, we can probably find one-off sources for stuff like that (i.e. when either website has not been kept up-to-date). I also updated Real Madrid and Bayern Munich's points, before the source has been updated. But updating point totals (and NOT concluding anything about qualifying status from them) is something that would fall under WP:CALC with a source for the match result.

Again, not saying we need to do it this way. But this is one way we might avoid having the tables shrink to zero or having it get too unwieldy with hundreds of teams. Bmf 051 (talk) 11:53, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Another idea is to have a template with the full ranking (or much of it) in a conditional table. That way it never shrinks to zero. But for contexts where we would like to keep it small (such as on the FIFA Club World Cup page for the current season), we give a parameter to collapse the table to just the teams in contention according to the sources.

Truncated table (default)

{{User:Bmf 051/sandbox/Template:FIFA Club World Cup 4-year ranking (CONMEBOL)}}

Rank	Club	2021	2022	2023	2024	Total
1	Palmeiras	43*	39	37	13†	132
2	Flamengo	46	52*	20	7†	125
3	Atlético Mineiro	38	26	17	15†	96
4	Fluminense	28		40*	11†	79
5	River Plate	22	23	19	13†	77
6	Boca Juniors	18	18	35		71
8	Olimpia	20	11	26		57
10	Nacional	11	10	19	10†	50
13	Independiente del Valle	8	11	19	7†	45
14	Cerro Porteño	16	14	7	8†	45
16	Bolivar			24	13†	37
17	Talleres		24		13†	37
18	São Paulo	25			12†	37
20	The Strongest	9	9	9	10†	37
21	Estudiantes		27		7†	34

Full table (parameter)

Only shows the first 21 teams, because I'm lazy

{{User:Bmf 051/sandbox/Template:FIFA Club World Cup 4-year ranking (CONMEBOL)|fulltable=true}}

Rank	Club	2021	2022	2023	2024	Total
1	Palmeiras	43*	39	37	13†	132
2	Flamengo	46	52*	20	7†	125
3	Atlético Mineiro	38	26	17	15†	96
4	Fluminense	28		40*	11†	79
5	River Plate	22	23	19	13†	77
6	Boca Juniors	18	18	35		71
7	Athletico Paranaense		37	22		59
8	Olimpia	20	11	26		57
9	Internacional	18		34		52
10	Nacional	11	10	19	10†	50
11	Vélez Sarsfield	19	30			49
12	Racing	21		27		48
13	Independiente del Valle	8	11	19	7†	45
14	Cerro Porteño	16	14	7	8†	45
15	Barcelona	30		7	5†	42
16	Bolivar			24	13†	37
17	Talleres		24		13†	37
18	São Paulo	25			12†	37
19	Argentinos Juniors	19		18		37
20	The Strongest	9	9	9	10†	37
21	Estudiantes		27		7†	34

This would require editors to have some knowledge of conditional tables. Bmf 051 (talk) 00:47, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

@Matilda Maniac@Miria~01 Since there seems to be agreement that we would all be fine with just showing the information from FIFA's website and perhaps supplemented by FootyRankings, I think I will update the table with that info when I get a chance. Basically adding some of the unlisted contenders from FootyRankings and highlighting the "current qualifiers" as per FIFA.

If someone else wants to do this before I do, that would be fine with me too. And if you don't agree with that, speak up. Bmf 051 (talk) 21:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding your suggestion, I don't see any consensus with a conditional tables in a template, no another user supported this proposal either. The main idea is to show only the clubs that are in contention and not additional those that have already qualified, like the winners of the continental championships or have long qualifying tables with a permanent number of clubs based on an arbitrarily determined number. The described alternative to current practice, if it is rejected in a consensus because of WP:CALC, would be this (suggested also by @Matilda Maniac in the Talk:2025 FIFA Club World Cup#Eligible teams 4-year ranking):

Leading teams still in contention for qualification through four-year confederations rankings Format and Legend as per the existing table

Leading CONMEBOL clubs Teams 2021 2022 2023 2024 Total W D L Phase Points W D L Phase Points W D L Phase Points W D L Phase Points River Plate† 3 4 3 QF 22 5 2 1 R16 23 4 1 3 R16 19 3 1 0 GS 13 77 Boca Juniors 3 3 2 R16 18 3 3 2 R16 18 4 8 1 Final 35 0 0 0 DNQ 0 71 Olimpia 3 2 5 QF 20 2 2 2 GS 11 5 2 3 QF 26 0 0 0 DNQ 0 57

Miria~01 (talk) 22:36, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Just noticed this reply. To be clear, I wasn't suggesting anything about the conditional tables idea. If you read the post, you will see that I believed we had agreed to at least update the table to match the source: that's why I said "just show the information from" the sources. Regardless, with the Inside FIFA source, the table now does exactly that, so it's a moot point (for now, at least). But I'm not sure where you concluded I was saying anything about the conditional tables idea. These were two separate ideas, two different posts, two different days. Bmf 051 (talk) 12:19, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I do not see that a consensus has been reached for change at this forum. Matilda Maniac (talk) 22:57, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

• If @Bmf 051: has concerns with WP:OR, then the alternative proposed seems to be suggesting changes that also don't meet that criterion. Bmf 051's proposition to have a separate article may have merit (like the UEFA or AFC coefficient ranking articles), but I wonder if that would meet WP:GNG as a stand-alone article forking out of the Club World cup article. A table that slowly shrinks appears to me to be the most appropriate course; it is shrinking each gameday as fewer teams are in contention. It is showing teams in contention rather than all teams coloured by whether they are in contention. The latter would be unwieldy. The addition to the table by @Miria~01: of a note in the Total column (which I think from a procedural perspective was very cheeky given the table was subject to debate here) nevertheless is useful as it clearly provides the result of the calculation for maximum points available. It is therefore easy to see that the remaining teams are still in contention, and there's the reference available (whether a primary source from FIFA, or whether replaced by a secondary source from Footy rankings). Regarding the 2029 Club World Cup article, such a table for teams in contention probably does not need to be developed until the 2028 competitions are underway (or at least well into the 2027 competitions). Matilda Maniac (talk) 22:57, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think I've done all I can to explain to you why I think this approach is WP:OR and I don't wish to do it again. What you've said about it being "easy to see" is a bandwagon fallacy. And as I've said, having the calculation is still not enough information to conclude who is in contention. For example, the added note doesn't explain why Barcelona is not in contention. The table as-is is unsourced. I removed it as such, and it was restored despite the person restoring it not providing a source per WP:PROVEIT. This is just going around in circles. Regardless of what (if anything) replaces this table, it is unsourced and I don't think there has been a good argument for why it should remain. I will ask an admin who I've run into a few times in WP:FOOTY discussions such as this one for their objective opinion.

  @GiantSnowman, would you mind informally weighing in on this? I believe the table 2025 FIFA Club World Cup#Teams still in contention for qualification through four-year confederations rankings is WP:OR and I removed it as such. The information is not sourced. It was restored, the argument from others being that it is WP:CALC. But as I've said above, determining who is in contention based on the rankings requires more than a trivial calculation (see my example involving Libertad above for when this can happen; there are certainly other examples). They're using WP:CALC to do some pretty heavy-lifting to avoid providing a source, which I think is not the purpose of WP:CALC. Should this table be allowed to stay despite lacking a source? I think it should be removed until either properly sourced or rewritten in such a way as to not make unsourced conclusions. Bmf 051 (talk) 11:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

  Source to back up current calculation.

  Can qualify as 2024 Champions (27 clubs) – 1 spot: ...
  Can qualify via Ranking (13 clubs) – 2 spots...
  As things stand ahead of Matchday 5, other South American teams still have the opportunity to be one of the 32 clubs at the inaugural tournament in the United States next year.
  A maximum 37 points are now available to non-champions: 12 by reaching the various knockout phase rounds, 25 in matches. This means:
  •All non-Brazilian teams still in the competition currently with 20 points or more can qualify via the ranking BUT ONLY if one of the Brazilian trio of former champions, Palmeiras, Flamengo or Fluminense, win the 2024 Libertadores. This would open up a third rankings pathway spot, and teams could overtake Club Olimpia (PAR, 57 points), who are not in this season’s CONMEBOL Libertadores.
  •All non-Brazilian teams with 34 points or more can overtake Boca Juniors (ARG, 71 points), who are not active this season, for the guaranteed second qualifying spot.
  •All non-Brazilian teams with 40 points or more can still overtake River Plate (ARG, 77 points), who are active this season. inside.fifa.com, Monday 13 May 2024

  And for scenarios there is always a source at FIFA and other news sites. For e.g. as it was for the River Plate scenario before the Matchday 4, how with a win they will be direct qualified via ranking. FIFA.com, 6 May 2024

  Before the Group stage started, these articles from FIFA and ESPN, already mentioned in the discussion, indicate exactly which clubs are in contention through the 4-year ranking, how the calculation works and how many points are available:

  • CONMEBOL Libertadores draw shapes the race for the FIFA Club World Cup 2025 - FIFA.com, 19 March 2024
  • Las posibilidades que tiene Nacional - ESPN Deportes, 12 April 2024

  That's why your arguments that there are no sources are untenable. And the calculation is trivial (explained also in the provide sources above): after every match day max. of 3 points less available, and additional 3 points less when a stage (group, knockout) is finished. If the maximum point yield is less than surpassing the still in contention leading third best-placed team at the ranking,[1] then you can no longer qualify via the ranking. Miria~01 (talk) 12:51, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks, the Inside FIFA reference is a perfectly good source for the current information on the page. That is all I'm asking for: a source that backs this up. Keep in mind that as teams drop out of contention, we will still need to find sources to support that. Hopefully similar articles are published by FIFA that will allow this information to remain up-to-date.

  I do not agree with your last paragraph. Everything on Wikipedia needs to be WP:VERIFIABLE. If it isn't, it shouldn't be here. And I think you are abusing the intent of WP:CALC. The issue isn't whether calculating the point totals is trivial. The issue is that making a conclusion about who is in contention based on that calculation often requires more than just a calculation. These conclusions still need to be sourced. I'm hoping @GiantSnowman can still informally weigh in on that, as that's still the point of contention here. Bmf 051 (talk) 21:04, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

  What does it mean @GiantSnowman, would you mind informally weighing in on this?? A single user you are cherry-picking to get involved to demonstrate the consensus you believe that you have? If consensus is now reached by your preferred committee of one, can I ask that no changes are made until after the Matchday 5 is completed, as to remove it during this three-day process is going to cause edit warring for sure? Yet I still do not see that this is a case of WP:CALC abuse, as per my original post here. Matilda Maniac (talk) 05:01, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Quite the opposite of cherry-picking. I hardly have interacted with @GiantSnowman. But from the conversations I've been a part of in which they have been involved, they seem like a fair and even-handed admin who is active in WP:FOOTY and willing to offer help. As the conversation was going around in circles, I was hoping an unbiased third-party could give some advice on whether they think declaring teams in/out of contention requires a source or if, like you said, it requires no source due to WP:CALC. I was honestly tired of going backwards and forwards on this, and was hoping to get an answer while also avoiding being accused of WP:CANVASSING. GiantSnowman was just the first person I thought of.

  As for not changing anything, I have no intention of "deleting" the current table, because the source provided above from Inside FIFA supports its inclusion. I also have no issues with the numbers in the table being updated (because *that* is IMO covered by WP:CALC). My issue is with declaring teams in/out of contention without a source, and claiming it's okay because of WP:CALC and not something more nuanced. i.e. I think removing teams from the table without a source could potentially be WP:OR. But hopefully, Inside FIFA will provide another article that supports those changes.

  I am unsure why this has suddenly become hostile and accusatory. I feel like this conversation has been quite civil up to this point. I do not appreciate being accused of edit-warring when I've in total made one revert on the page in question. Engaging in WP:BRD is not edit-warring. Bmf 051 (talk) 08:26, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  I have not repeat not accused you of edit warring at all, but I am just reflecting that ANYONE deleting the table just now in the middle of lots of other people editing this article in the middle of Matchday 5, and not everyone editing well (see todays reverts), will likely cause reverting and restoring left-right-centre. If it has to change because consensus is reached here, do it on the weekend. As a separate issue, it does look to me that WP:CANVASSING is evident. Matilda Maniac (talk) 10:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  How does this not fit under WP:APPNOTE? Limited notification, I described both sides of the argument (WP:OR vs. WP:CALC) to the best of my understanding, I made no assumptions about the admin's opinion, and I did it openly. Asking an admin for help is not canvassing.

  I think I deserve an explanation. If you're going to accuse me of something, you need to provide some reasoning. If you truly think I'm WP:CANVASSING, there are ways you can address it. Why have you not taken any of those steps? Bmf 051 (talk) 12:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  I have no views on this topic to 'weigh in'. GiantSnowman 17:39, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Aston Villa F.C. Featured Article Review

I have nominated Aston Villa F.C. for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Unknown Temptation (talk) 20:07, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I think the proper location should be at Wikipedia:Featured article review/Aston Villa F.C. without the "archive1" at the end, unless it has been located with the archive1 at the end for some reason. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 21:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

It is already at the correct location, that is how the featured article system is ordered. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:46, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

I didn't know how that system actually works late on 6 May when I made that comment of mine. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 20:12, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

Czech and Slovak male footballers

I'm doing a clean-up male footballer articles from West Slavic countries, namely Czech Republic and Slovakia, as I've been noticing a lot of them are not sourced or written well in any way, especially smaller ones. For example, Czech footballer Marek Havlík article has been unsourced since its creation for ten years, so I just need help to add secondary sources.

Regarding Slovak football players... the strangest thing is... unlike corresponding articles of Czech and Polish football players in their respective Wikipedia languages, even if there's a corresponding article of certain SVK football players, they mostly look far from well-written than English article (see here for example). Such case is Róbert Mazáň, which took me some minutes to clean his article up because there hasn't been a corresponding article on Slovak Wikipedia (I already stated that in my edit summary).

How should we improve them?

Clara A. Djalim (talk) 13:46, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Remove any unsourced info and tag with {{BLP sources}} or {{BLP unsourced}} as appropriate. GiantSnowman 14:53, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

What flag?

What flag icon do I use for a football player born in India in 1883? Govvy (talk) 10:07, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Per Star of India (flag), British Raj's official state flag for use on land was the Union Flag of the United Kingdom. However {{Country data British Raj}} seems to default to the civil ensign. S.A. Julio (talk) 10:28, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

k, I added "British Raj" to my draft (User:Govvy/1907–08 Tottenham Hotspur F.C. season) and yes it comes up with the ensign flag. Is that representative of the nation you're born in? Govvy (talk) 10:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The table header says "Flags indicate national team as defined under FIFA eligibility rules." Obviously FIFA didn't exist at the time so this is a rather large red herring, but at the time India was not an independent country, so Pass would not have had Indian citizenship and if he had ever played internationally it would not have been for India (the India national football team did not play a match until the 1920s). So he wasn't "Indian" in any meaningful/relevant sense. I think you are trying to apply a modern standard to a scenario for which it doesn't work...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:58, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Maybe, I can always set the flag icon to English, I was just trying to follow a manual of style, but you do make a valid point, I also had a draft for Jimmy Pass in my sandbox, says he was born in Juffupore in Goodwin's book, but is there even a place called Juffupore in India? Govvy (talk) 11:52, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I would use the British flag (Union flag) rather than that of England. His parents could have been Scottish or Welsh..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:54, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

BTW, on his place of birth, this (registration required) says he was born in Jabalpur, which was previously called Jubbulpore -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:55, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, now that's a good source, cheers Chris, I wonder why Goodwin has such a bad miss-type here. Govvy (talk) 12:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Just a small point, not sure if it was still the case in 1907 but in the 19th century, India-born players were only eligible for England regardless of their heritage, see William Lindsay and Stuart Macrae. Crowsus (talk) 19:26, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

And see here also List_of_England_international_footballers_born_outside_England#British India ColchesterSid (talk) 21:56, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

National team logos

Looks like the Canada Soccer logo has been removed from Canada men's national soccer team and Canada women's national soccer team due to a violation of WP:NFC#UUI section 17. How should this be resolved? A picture of a team lineup, the national flag, or somehow restoring the logo? SounderBruce 05:32, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

The logo belongs to Canadian Soccer, so we can only use it on that article. Even if other people use the Canadian Soccer logo for the teams, it isn't the logo of them so won't meet Wikipedia's non free image policy. This is the case for all logos of football/soccer (and other sports)' organisations, if the logo is of the organisation and not the team itself. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Cross Project Work

Hello Football Editors! Editors over at the WikiProject Unreferenced Articles are discussing working with other WikiProjects to tackle their backlog. This might take the form of a backlog drive or building up a shared resource to find reliable sources. We'd like you to be involved in the discussion because Football was identified as being a topic with a large number of articles lacking references - please join the discussion here. -- D'n'B-t -- 06:41, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Popularity in the 60s/70s of Spain women's football

How can determinate if there was a certain popularity? It is a current discusion here. Please help. Blow.ofmind78 (talk) 07:37, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Svenska Fans (svenskafans.com), which is within the scope of this WikiProject. AlexandraAVX (talk) 17:30, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Bristol Rovers F.C. listed for Good article reassessment

Bristol Rovers F.C. has been listed under Good article reassessment. If you have anything to add, please do by adding to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. JpTheNotSoSuperior (talk) 19:13, 14 May 2024 (UTC)