Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions

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Contents 1 Capitalization of tech trademarks, again 2 Requested move 2.1 Survey 2.1.1 No move remain at: Naming conventions 2.1.2 Move to: Naming convention 2.1.3 Move to: Article naming convention 2.1.4 Move to: Naming policy 2.1.5 Move to: Article naming policy 2.1.6 Move to: Article naming 2.2 Discussion 3 Cuisines 4 Most common = North American ? 5 RFC: Subtitles in naming 6 strengthening of the intro 7 Requested help with a naming problem 8 "Official Names" 9 Naming conventions redirects 10 reliable sources using "the Beatles" or "The Beatles" in running text 11 Sugarland (duo) vs. Sugarland (band) 12 Redesign of this page 13 Hyphen, en dash, colon...? 14 Franchise article naming convention discussion

[edit] Capitalization of tech trademarks, again

This might be more of an issue for MOS:TM, but there are a number of technology-related articles with nonstandard capitalization that probably need to be straightened out. Just as other trademarks are to use standard capitalization, so should TeX, LaTeX, and related articles, as well as NeXT (and GRiD Compass, an article I created myself when I was less policy-aware, now moved). I recently moved the first two to Tex (typesetting system) and Latex (markup language), leaving intact a discussion of the "official" way to write these two names (it's worse, actually; their creators generally insist on a logo being used, as mentioned in the document). These moves were very quickly reverted by User:EmilJ with the comment WP:UCN "Use the most common name of a person or thing" and WP:NC "items ... should have standard capitalization". The standard capitalization is LaTeX. TeX and LaTeX are *never* *ever* referred to as Tex in English. This seems a rather obvious misunderstanding of the policy, but I thought I'd bring this up here first.

Just as Wikipedia doesn't burden itself with the likes of REALTOR, there's no reason for silly and attention-grabbing capitalization to be indulged for the likes of software products; "LaTeX" is pronounced "latex"; "NeXT" is pronounced "next". ProhibitOnions ^(T) 14:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

What a wonderful example. I'm guessing this will remain a counterexample to the guidance at WP:MOSTM, because I think academics and web designers aren't going to give up on TeX and LaTeX. But I'm guessing it's not a counterexample to WP:MOSCAPS, because I expect that newspapers and magazines use TeX and LaTeX ... am I wrong? There's nothing in NYTM or AP Stylebook. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 14:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

LaTeX is not pronounced "latex", BTW. (And the capitalization of "TeX" was itself chosen to distinguish it from "Tex" and "TEX", and LaTeX likewise is unrelated to latex.) shreevatsa (talk) 15:29, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant. That's why we have disambiguation, and for that matter, normal capitalization of proper nouns. FWIW, there's a German textiles company that styles itself TeX, as well. It's quite simple: we are not beholden to idiosyncratic capitalization. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 16:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

The names of software are generally case-sensitive (which is itself tradition) and it is incorrect to change case based on some understanding of the English language's rules. Thus TeX, ls, grep, troff, GNOME (even though it's not an acronym now), wxWidgets, PyGTK, gDesklets, libXML, ORBit, ECMAScript, OpenOffice.org etc. I hope you are not suggesting that all these articles be renamed based on some reading of policy that trumps common sense and convention.
Just as it does for biological names, scientific nomenclature and the like, I propose that policy recognise that software names are case-sensitive. Note that WP:CAPS says: "Because credibility is a primary objective in the creation of any reference work, and because Wikipedia strives to become a leading (if not the leading) reference work in its genre, formality and an adherence to conventions widely used in the genre are critically important to credibility." Wikipedia not respecting the correct names of software would actually make it look stupid and lose credibility. shreevatsa (talk) 19:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

If you read the policy, you'll find that ECMAScript, OpenOffice.org, gDesklets, PyGTK, and probably wxWidgets are fine the way they are; this is a straw man argument. We could, indeed, consider a guideline for terms that originated as lowercase computer prompt commands, such as troff. However, our current policy has been discussed at great length; this is a general encyclopedia, and there's no good reason for showy capitalization of words that are not acronyms, but pronounced as written. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 19:59, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Like peeling an onion... WP:MOSTM states that in the case of trademarks (specifically) that the use of camelcase is up to the author. WP:CAPS, however, recommends Chicago as a "recommended reference works for capitalization conventions". Chicago says in §8.163 "Company or product names with an internal capital immediately following, and followed by, a lowercase letter should be left unchanged…" So, IMHO, LaTeX is correct, assuming it is, in fact, a trademark. Livitup (talk) 15:29, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that language from CMS gets at the capital X at the end of "LaTeX." Croctotheface (talk) 18:57, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] Cuisines

I've noticed that there is a slight lack of consistency in the naming of cuisine articles. Over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Food and drink we're pretty much agreed upon that XXX cuisine should be the standard with exceptions when the adjective is too ambiguous, such as American cuisine. I've created a proposal at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (cuisines) to address the issue.

Peter ^Isotalo 09:35, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Most common = North American ?

As I understand things, an important property of wikipedia is that it does not have a bias for any major English-speaking group. So we have articles called Color and Autumn, and Diaper and Central reservation. One could argue that the "greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize" North American English, and so North American titles should predominate. (Or perhaps the "greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize" Commonwealth English — we could commission a survey to find out.)

What is there to stop these kinds of arguments? I think one name should be chosen over another only when there is a very clear majority, but I can't find this in the policy. 128.232.1.193 (talk) 18:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

See WP:ENGVAR. Wikipedia has no preferred format; the MOS only requires that the same variant of English be used throughout a particular article. Which variant to use is generally chosen by the article author at the time the article is created, and should rarely be changed. Generally speaking, topics which share some relationship with a national dialect is written in that dialect. So an article on London would be written using British English, while (whilst?) an article on New York City would be written in American English.

Again, the overwhelming consensus is to be as open as possible, while remaining consistent within an article, and not changing entire articles from one variant to another on a whim. Hope that helps. Livitup (talk) 12:20, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I know what has driven the original poster to ask this question and I know the angle that he/she is coming at this from. The OP is talking about what might happen if the "greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize" rule is applied to every article naming dispute (and specifically naming). What actually defines that sentence? is it people who have English as a native language or is it people who can speak English and use the English WP? The OP is asking how do we balance the North American Native English speakers with the Worldwide number of people who can speak English? Google hits and reliable sources are liable to be biased to North American sources and therefore could sway article naming to a North American perspective even though every other English speaker in the World knows the subject of an Article by a single different name.

For the purposes of full disclosure, the problem that has caused this question is the naming of the Sega Mega Drive games console. The Mega Drive is Japanese in origin and was called Mega Drive the World over, the console was renamed to Genesis for its release in North America. The current call for a rename revolves around the Genesis name and if the number of native English speakers in North America outweighs the fact that it was known to English speakers in the rest of the World as Mega Drive.

The OP is asking how we draw a balance. ie if the number of people who are native English speakers is the rule; then by default, all naming disputes will result in a North American version being the one recognised by the greatest number of English speakers. But if the number of people who can speak English is the rule to follow then naming disputes will always result in a Worldwide name being chosen. - X201 (talk) 13:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

• Our ENGVAR rules at MOS have evolved to work superbly well, given the huge editorship from the seven ancentral native-English-speaking countries. Don't tell me you're going to blot our copy-book. Who cares, in the end whether it's in US or Br English? The differences are trivial. Work it out among yourselves, and be generous to the other side. What you win or lose this time, you lose or win on another article. TONY (talk) 14:44, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

And above all be generous with redirects, hatnotes, and anything else which will help speakers of all varieties of English to find the info they want in Wikipedia (and to avoid them creating a new article because they didn't find the first one!) PamD (talk) 14:49, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all for your responses. I have just seen a fairly recent modification of WP:UE#Divided usage. "When there is evenly divided usage and other guidelines do not apply, leave the article name at the latest stable version." I think this advice should be included here, at WP:NC, too. The advice seems appropriate even if the dispute is not over English usage. If two large groups of people use different names for the same thing, then the existing name should be retained if other guidelines do not apply — regardless of whether one group is slightly larger than another, which countries the groups come from, etc. 128.232.1.193 (talk) 10:19, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RFC: Subtitles in naming

User:JHunterJ and I are having a dispute on whether an article on a board game should have its subtitle: I contend that it should, citing precedents such as Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots, Pokémon XD: Gale of Darkness (both video games), Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan (a film), and Descent: Journeys in the Dark (a board game) as examples, and thus I have proposed to move Elasund to Elasund: The First City. However, JHunterJ disagrees, claming that "Elasund" will the the name most refer it to and how most look it up, citing precedent in book naming conventions (which omit subtitles). A uniform policy across all such media is needed, and discussion should be useful in resolving this issue. kelvSYC (talk) 04:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Users JHunterJ and dcclark disagree with KelvSYC, because of WP:COMMONNAME. "Common name" is a uniform policy across all media (of which books are also a part). -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I thought we'd banned proxies. :-) Waltham, The Duke of 15:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

For books, the issue is treated at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books)#Subtitles.

"which omit subtitles" is however an incorrect summary of the relevant books guidance. It's not a good idea to start this discussion with an erroneous oversimplification imho.

I have no experience whether guidance comparable to the books guidance would be adjusted for fields as diverse as games, films, etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Last time I checked, WP:COMMONNAME is with regards to names of people. But anyways, I should make it clear that subtitles are necessary in some certain contexts such as disambiguation (eg. Fire Emblem vs Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn), so we should be focusing on the naming of things in which the intended item is unambiguous without the subtitle. And from what I have seen, articles on films or video games at least tend to have the full name, while articles on books omit it. Here are more examples:

• Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (not Dr. Strangelove)
• Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins (not Super Mario Land 2)
• Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island (not Super Mario World 2 or Yoshi's Island)
• Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3 (not Wario Land or Super Mario Land 3)

kelvSYC (talk) 15:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Re. "Last time I checked, WP:COMMONNAME is with regards to names of people" – please check again, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) was split of from WP:COMMONNAME in 2005. Really, starting a discussion with an exposé of erroneous simplifications is not the most brilliant of ideas.

I've encountered a few instances of book articles not following letter & spirit of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books)#Subtitles. Accidents will happen, and in other cases sensible reasons not spelled out in the guideline were taken into account. Hard to build a case on a few unequal exceptions imho.

Re. Dr. Strangelove: I think that film should better be at that name. It was renamed without particular reason ([2]); it is a bit funny that the long version of the film title doesn't follow the capitalization provided by the distributor (see Image:Drstrangelove1sheet-.jpg); and it is generally known under the short name without ambiguity. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I won't argue about WP:COMMONNAME then, because it needs heavy refactoring - Saying that naming conventions on people was split off doesn't reflect nicely on WP:COMMONNAME since all of its examples are on articles about people. Again, I question whether the policy on books applies for other media. Perhaps books consistently omit subtitles (Frankenstein, and so forth), but calling what is probably standard practice in the names of other media as being "unequal exceptions" is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Especially considering that in all likelihood the opposite is true in virtually every other form of media. I could prolly give a long list of CVGs for which including subtitles (where it isn't strictly necessary to establish the subject matter) is the norm, and given enough time, I could find BTGs, films, and other media for which this is also true. On a sidenote, how do you intend to resolve StarCraft: The Board Game vs Starcraft (board game)? kelvSYC (talk) 17:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I've invited three relevant WikiProjects for their opinions: WP:CVG, WP:BTG, and WP:FILM on their thoughts. Let's see what they think, since it impacts them the most. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KelvSYC (talk • contribs) 13:43, July 17, 2008

Re. "WP:COMMONNAME [...] all of its examples are on articles about people" – please look again (WP:NCCN#Examples), 5 out of 11 examples are not people. I'm not going to make cheap jokes about the Guinea pig and the Sea cucumber.

Re. "Again, I question whether the policy on books applies for other media" – it doesn't, see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books)#Scope and definitions.

Re. "Perhaps books consistently omit subtitles" – no, again, apart from a few exceptions (some of them simple errors or unawareness of the guideline), Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books)#Subtitles is the guideline that is applied for book articles.

Then follow more errors and arcane interpretations. No idea where you're trying to take yourself. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Explain to me why you think I am erroneous when I cite existing practice, or where my interpretations are "arcane" - why WP:CVG has it wrong when they put the article at Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos instead of Warcraft III, or why they have it wrong when it's Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars instead of Super Mario RPG. These are clearly not books, and are outside the scope of book naming conventions. kelvSYC (talk) 18:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if this sounds like a repeat: I have no experience whether guidance comparable to the books guidance would be adjusted for fields as diverse as games, films, etc.

Apart from books I only commented on the Dr. Strangelove film, while it seemed pretty straightforward to me. I have no opinion regarding the games. The only thing I wanted to make clear still: if you request "a uniform policy across all [...] media", then either count books out, or adapt to the books guideline. The other media articles are currently subject to the general naming conventions guidelines, including WP:NCCN. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:45, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

As a VG project editor I do think that game subtitles are used rather gratuitously and contrary to WP:COMMONNAME. While it is sometimes practical, in the case of disambiguation, it is often completely unnecessary or even counterproductive. For example, why is the article at Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty when the article also covers Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance (the Xbox port), which is essentially the same game? Wouldn't it just make a lot more sense to drop the subtitle? I don't want to see a repeat of this for MGS4. Ham Pastrami (talk) 01:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

As I mentioned when the subject came up at the VG project, my preferred naming conventions are "STOP MOVING IT" and "redirects are cheap, and also your friends." Nifboy (talk) 07:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

My 2p (which others have stated above): consistent with practice for books and movies, 1) include the subtitle in the full article ONLY when necessary for disambiguation (either among games, like titles that are part of a series, or between game and non-game articles that would otherwise have the same title): this is the only reason why Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan has a subtitle; there is a separate article at Borat that is about the character. 2) It would of course be OK to create a redirect article with a name that includes the subtitle, pointing to the non-subtitled full article. 3) To NB's "STOPMOVINGIT" concern: consistency is important, and if that means we have to do a bunch of final moves to implement whatever we decide here, so be it (moves are cheap too). UnitedStatesian (talk) 17:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] strengthening of the intro

This is a rare occasion on which I agree with Philip Baird Shearer's approach. Tony (talk) 13:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested help with a naming problem

Over on the Spore (2008 video game) page, we're having a rather winded discussion about where the page should reside.

Obviously, we already have Spore in general, so it can't be there. To make matters tricky, we have three existing video games from different years all called "Spore", but by and large, the 2008 game is most likely what people will be searching for (at least within the next year) when they type in "spore video game" into the search bar. Hatnotes are present to point to the other two Spore video games, and presently Spore (video game) is a mini-disambiguation page for the three games.

There are two concerns here.

1. Should the 2008 game be at "Spore (2008 video game)" (as per preciseness), or, due to the fact that it is the most common video game to be searched for, be at "Spore (video game)"? The page agrees with the former, but there's a few that believe the latter is the better solution.
2. If the page stays at "2008 video game", should the current disambig page at "Spore (video game)" actually be a redirection to the 2008 game (as it is the most common uses of "spore video game" or remain a disambiguation page?

Additional input will be helpful to resolve the dispute. --MASEM 17:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:RM – the procedure is explained on that page. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Spore (video game) shouldn't be a disambiguation page, mini or otherwise. It should be an article or a redirect. If it's a redirect to Spore (disambiguation), it'd be a {{R from incomplete disambiguation}}. If it becomes a redirect to Spore (2008 video game), then, yes, I'd move Spore (2008 video game) to Spore (video game), but that's not mandatory. If there's consensus at the page for one way or the other, that's sufficient. -- JHunterJ (talk) 01:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

My biggest problem is that I never had an opportunity to participate in the discussion, a discussion which very few people participated in, for the reason that there was no attempt to seek outside input, there was no "move discussion tag", so if you didn't go to the talk page, you had no way of being involved. It wasn't a real discussion, and there wasn't a real consensus. The only real reason not to put it at (video game) is the inconvenience. However, if it's moved and the redirects are repaired, nothing is harmed. (video game) is going to redirect to the disambig or the video game. The disambig isn't a likely scenario, since it would logically redirect to a specific video game. If it's (video game), it's going to go to the Spore PC article anyway. - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:25, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Just to state that A Link to the Past is the only person who has said it should be moved back all the others on the topic don't see any reason to move it back. Main argument for the page to stay where it is. Is that there is two other games named Spore and now all of them can be easilly separated from just the page tittle making mistakes almost null. This still doesn't seem to be good enough explanation for A Link to the Past who states that his opinion is the right as he thinks that it would be more beneficial to Wikipedia to have the game under "Spore (video game)" even if its makes posibility to mistakes. His saying that the main reason why people are against him is "inconvenience" is wrong they are against his suggestion as it wont benefit the page at all as its now more clearly identified from the two other games. I only wrote this as A Link to the Past seems to mistaken of the reasons why his suggestion is not widely accepted. Also what would be harmed if the "Spore (video game)" would just be redirect like it earlier was before some nameless individual made it to disambiguation page a deed that A Link to the Past blames on the people who vote for the move but wasn't even made by them. --80.221.239.213 (talk) 08:43, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Unless there's some relevant, actionable history (like an AN/I or other review), please stop discussing A Link to the Past and just discuss the application of the Naming Conventions to the various Spore articles. Since there's a disambiguating phrase in the article title, it really won't matter much whether the dab phrase is "(video game)" or "(2008 video game)"; Wikipedia regulars might be tempted to try tacking on "(video game)", but most casual visitors won't, so they'll have to take the same path to the game regardless. Since Spore has a hatnote that directs 2008 video game seekers to the 2008 video game, it is even unlikely that regulars will need to bother with it. I've cleaned up Spore (disambiguation) and boldly redirected to Spore (video game) to it. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The existence of a possibility for mistake is not relevant if the possibility of the mistake occurring is extremely minimal. Like JHunter said, if it's going to redirect to (2008 video game) anyway, nothing is changed. If Spore (video game) is about the PC game, and has a disambig note at the top, it's going to result in the same as if it were at 2008 video game - no matter what happens, if a user goes to Spore (video game) or Spore (2008 video game), they will end up at the PC game. If it's harmful for the PC Spore to be at (video game), it should be harmful for that to redirect to (2008 video game). The way it can be seen is that if any harm exists, both situations will have an equal level of harm, and if there is no other factor in deciding where it should be, it shouldn't matter - the only thing that has to be asked then is "is it necessary to give it a longer title?" To many VG users, (video game) is a common disambig after a video game. - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with JHunterJ's course of action; Spore (video game) should not be a disambiguation page when its three items could easily be integrated in Spore (disambiguation). I didn't find the anchor that necessary, but I think the redirect to the disambiguation page was a good call. Waltham, The Duke of 23:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Official Names"

Is there currently a convention that exists anywhere for "official names"? For example, this revision to Conservative Party (UK), admittedly by me, has the official name (Conservative and Unionist Party) at the beginning of the lead, whereas another article Penalty shootout (association football) currently has the "popular" name first (i.e. penalty shootout). Admittedly this is in the lead rather than article names; however, I wondered if there was a convention as to when an article's name (per the naming conventions) is different to the "official name" and where therefore the "official name" appears (as it should) in the lead which should come first?

I know it's not a major issue but I've been through a few articles and it looks a bit of a mess when there are varying different styles used. BigHairRef | Talk 03:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

On biographies, WP:MOSBIO is clear:

"While the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known, the subject's full name should be given in the lead paragraph, if known. Many cultures have a tradition of not using the full name of a person in everyday reference, but the article should start with the complete version. For example:

• (from Fidel Castro): Fidel Alejandro Castro Ruz (born 13 August 1926) …

It goes on to an illustration where the official name has changed:

In some cases, subjects have legally changed their names at some point after birth. In these cases the birth name should be given as well:

• (from Bill Clinton): William Jefferson Clinton (born William Jefferson Blythe III on 19 August 1946)

PamD (talk) 06:38, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I was aware of the naming conventions for people and organisations, it was more as to the order in which they should come up in the lead. As I said it's not a mojor issue it would just be something useful in terms of style if all were to follow the same conventions, i.e. assuming the article's title was not the official name of an organisation, process, thing or person then which order should the official name then the common name follow in the lead as in the two examples given. BigHairRef | Talk 09:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

We often start with bolding the official name; but it'a a matter of taste, depending on euphony and exactly how uncommon the official name is; Cher seems to work well as it stands, the other way. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Naming conventions redirects

I propose that: commonly used redirects that currently link to guidelines describing the naming conventions, should be altered to redirect to the appropriate sections in this policy page. For example WP:COMMON should redirect to Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use common names of persons and things, rather than to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). This will allow it a clear distinction to be made between the naming conventions as policy and the naming conventions' guidelines. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:16, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

[edit] reliable sources using "the Beatles" or "The Beatles" in running text

Please take a look at Talk:The_Beatles#reliable_sources_using_"the_Beatles"_or_"The_Beatles". Thank you, Espoo (talk) 07:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Re. use in running text: unrelated to Wikipedia:Naming conventions, see WP:MoS instead.

The article naming issue (i.e. the naming conventions issue) regarding this band is settled at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name)#Names of bands and groups. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sugarland (duo) vs. Sugarland (band)

A while back, I moved the page to Sugarland (duo), based on the fact that a duo is not a band. This move went uncontested for months until User:Ericorbit moved it back citing naming conventions. I don't see anywhere in naming conventions that says that a musical group's page has to end in (band) if needed — two members do not a band make. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 16:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I based my decision on the massive sweep done months (years?) ago which made just about all musical acts with more than one person needing disambiguation to "(band)". I know that when I first started editing in WP there were many pages with all types of descriptors: "(group)" or "(girl group)" or "(dance music act)", etc. I assumed (I suppose incorrectly) that there was something concrete written about musical acts being labeled "(band)" in order to keep things uniform. One example I gave to TPH was TLC (band) — hardly a "band" per se, but that particular disambiguation description keeps it in conformity to other musical-artist-related articles. I find a bit of a flaw with the line of thinking that a "duo" is not a "band". I believe a band can most certainly have as little as two people. For example, if someone wrote a best selling novel titled The White Stripes, I would expect the disambiguation of the music article to be "The White Stripes (band)", not "The White Stripes (duo)". Anyone else have thoughts on the matter or have TPH and I missed a prior conversation about this issue? - eo (talk) 12:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen a duo referred to as a band. Not Brooks & Dunn, Montgomery Gentry, Sugarland, not The Judds. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 01:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that "band" sounds like more than two (in a way that "group" doesn't). The relevant section of WP:NAME, Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Album_and_song_titles_and_band_names, says "When necessary, disambiguation should be done using (band), (album), or (song) (such as Anthrax (band) or Insomniac (album))" but goes on to say "When a track is not strictly a song (in other words a composition without lyrics, or an instrumental that is not a cover of a song), disambiguation should be done using (composition) or (instrumental).". Using "(duo)" could be seen to be an extension of that logic; perhaps there needs to be a discussion about that exact point (are you happy for a trio to be a "band"?). It's important that there's a redirect from the "(band)" version. Slight complication ... I see it was a trio until 2006! Might be best to just relax and leave it at "band", with a redirect from duo, accepting "band" as a wikipedia technical term which has a specific sense of "more than one person doing music together"? PamD (talk) 07:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Redesign of this page

This page is getting very long and unreadable. Since each section has its own page where the guideline is written in details and editors usually refer to, I don't think that the summaries in this page are really useful or representative of the guideline. Did someone think about collapsing the whole page, leaving only a short one-sentence description for each specific NC? (Wikipedia:Quick directory is close to what I have in mind). 18:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure that this is a good idea. This page is policy and as such the other pages, as guidelines, ought to describe in detail what is said on this page. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 18:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but every section links to a more detailed page, and some sections doesn't even have a summary which makes the page very messy. Eklipse (talk) 18:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hyphen, en dash, colon...?

At the Wikipedia: WikiProject Olympics, there is a doubt on which way we should name articles about Olympic events that are part of a specific sport. For every Olympic sport (e.g. athletics, basketball, judo, etc.) there is a main-level page which is standardly named <Sport> at the <Year> <Season> Olympics (e.g. Swimming at the 2004 Summer Olympics). Then, we have articles for each medal-awarding event that is related to a specific Olympic sport, and these pages were named <Sport> at the <Year> <Season> Olympics - <Gender> <event> (e.g. Swimming at the 2004 Summer Olympics - Women's 200 metre backstroke).

We didn't pay attention to this detail until know and although we searched the MoS to answer our question, we haven't found a clear guideline. The issue is: what kind of character should we use for the event page titles, where we want to link the event name with the parent sport? We've always used an hyphen, but as per WP:DASH, they don't serve that purpose; we've thought about replacing them with unspaced en-dashes, but the guideline concerning use of "En dashes in page names" doesn't mention the case where a hyphen was used as a linker. The closest thing found here, where a colon is recommended, but I don't think these articles are considered long lists.

What do you recommend? Parutakupiu (talk) 18:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

My recommendation is to use spaced en dashes. The MoS may not be clear about this specific case, but

1. hyphens should not be used in this fashion and I have yet to hear of any appropriate usage of em dashes in titles; and
2. WP:DASH says that spaced en dashes are used in lists to separate points; if you put all these article titles together, they do make such a list.

This is to use the wording closest to the occasion, but it really is the only plausible option anyway—the colon one is irrelevant, as these articles are indeed not components of long alphabetical lists.

I therefore suggest using titles like Swimming at the 2004 Summer Olympics – Women's 200 metre backstroke. There should also be a hyphenated version for each article, so that readers typing the hyphen in the title will be redirected to the correct page. As most (or all?) articles are in the version with the hyphen, the moves will create the redirects, so as far as this side of the issue is concerned, you probably only have to worry about future cases.

Thank you for using the Wikipedia Help System. Waltham, The Duke of 21:32, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Good to know that your recommendation goes in favor of the general consensus back at the WikiProject. We've had a user who offered to write a bot that will replace all the hundreds of pages that display such title structure. Its approval is still pending, so once it's approved and the 2008 Olympics (and with it the edit-frenzy on Olympics-related articles), massive moves will be made, with the hyphen-containing pages becoming redirects as you recommend.

Thank you! Parutakupiu (talk) 22:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I note that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (long lists) (which is the closest MOS article I could find that might apply to our scheme for WP:Summary style on Olympic articles) makes no mention of en dashes and explicitely calls out a hyphen as an acceptable alternative to the preferred colon. It ought to be updated, I guess, if this is the new consensus. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

MoS is pretty clear in preferring a spaced en dash. It looks much better and is more easily recognisable than a hyphen. On a computer monitor, many browsers and fonts render hyphens rather ungenerously (is it a fly spot?). Tony (talk) 00:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

As I was watching some running just now, I noticed that spaced en dashes are used in the score cards for phrases like Result – Semifinal 1. I couldn't find any hyphens to make a comparison, but I'm certain that I saw en dashes. Clearly, this example should be followed. ;-)

And yes, I agree that the page needs to be updated. Waltham, The Duke of 11:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Which is to say, Tony and a handful of others dislike hyphens and have revert-warred against them. As often, do what seems best, after seeing what your sources do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Not worth replying to. Tony (talk) 05:23, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Franchise article naming convention discussion

A naming convention discussion for how to name franchise articles is taking place here. If anyone is interested, please come and give your input. LA (T) @ 23:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)